rosy reds vs. feeder goldfish

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I agree with what everyone said about rtcs, almost all of the people who get them arnt equiped to keep them and wind up running into problems. As far as breeding livebearers goes its pretty easy. Ive done it by accident also and they are the first type of fish i would recomend for a beginer breeder.


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Agreed on the rtc. Many people buy them when small underestamating them and their habbits. I see a fair bit on here for sale from time to time.

One of those species that's best left in the wild or a very massive aquarium which most of us can't afford.

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Most livebearers contain MORE thiamine then goldfish/minnows do. Most fish contain thiamine.. the levels are where it becomes an issue.. how often.. and IF it's part of a native fishes diet. Gar are not tropical fish.. they are US natives ( with the exception of trops and cubans, which are still both from the americas) and are use to eating fish with thiamine in them.. this is also their primary source of food in the wild. adding convicts for feeders into a gar tank would be a flat out bad idea. cichlids are not good tank-mates with gar to begin with.. and cons ime will hide and start breeding in the main tank... and start aggressing the tank-mates. livebearers are unsuitable food for gars since not only will your gar eat large quantities of live food ( and should have it available 24/7 its first YOY ideally) It will easily eat adult sailfin molly sized feeders in large quantities. So unless your setting up 300gal stock tanks for feeder breeding/houseing. You're not going to keep up with the demand of your fish. while 50 goldfish can be QTd in a 20 gallon rubbermaid tub easily. setting up 3 such tubs.. and each week buying/feeding out a tub full so your QTing 3 weeks per batch is ideal.

Gar are not your typical tropical fish.
 
MonsterMinis said:
Most livebearers contain MORE thiamine then goldfish/minnows do. Most fish contain thiamine.. the levels are where it becomes an issue.. how often.. and IF it's part of a native fishes diet. Gar are not tropical fish.. they are US natives ( with the exception of trops and cubans, which are still both from the americas) and are use to eating fish with thiamine in them.. this is also their primary source of food in the wild. adding convicts for feeders into a gar tank would be a flat out bad idea. cichlids are not good tank-mates with gar to begin with.. and cons ime will hide and start breeding in the main tank... and start aggressing the tank-mates. livebearers are unsuitable food for gars since not only will your gar eat large quantities of live food ( and should have it available 24/7 its first YOY ideally) It will easily eat adult sailfin molly sized feeders in large quantities. So unless your setting up 300gal stock tanks for feeder breeding/houseing. You're not going to keep up with the demand of your fish. while 50 goldfish can be QTd in a 20 gallon rubbermaid tub easily. setting up 3 such tubs.. and each week buying/feeding out a tub full so your QTing 3 weeks per batch is ideal.

Gar are not your typical tropical fish.
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Spot on with the convict statement! I was hopin to breed convicts as a feeder a while back, put a male and female in the tank with my gar. They made a home under some rocks, then bred and became very agressive. They were too fast/smart for my gar to catch. The convicts would nip my gars tail and fins causing him to jet off (luckily he never broke his back). I highly suggest AGAINST using convicts as feeders for a fish with not much agility.
 
brettsdad2011 said:
so, RTC and TSN are out...looks like im keeping the armoured catfish, unless...there is a smaller hybrid of a RTC of TSN??? maybe??? anybody know? also, are guppies difficult to breed? is there anyway i could possibly keep up with the demand of these fish breeding my own food? i hope to get the clown knife on frozen food soon. then my only worry would be the rocket gar but he doesnt eat much anyway.
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If you wont a nice catfish that wont outgrow your tank, get a tigrinus catfish!!!
 
MonsterMinis said:
Most livebearers contain MORE thiamine then goldfish/minnows do. Most fish contain thiamine.. the levels are where it becomes an issue.. how often.. and IF it's part of a native fishes diet. Gar are not tropical fish.. they are US natives ( with the exception of trops and cubans, which are still both from the americas) and are use to eating fish with thiamine in them.. this is also their primary source of food in the wild. adding convicts for feeders into a gar tank would be a flat out bad idea. cichlids are not good tank-mates with gar to begin with.. and cons ime will hide and start breeding in the main tank... and start aggressing the tank-mates. livebearers are unsuitable food for gars since not only will your gar eat large quantities of live food ( and should have it available 24/7 its first YOY ideally) It will easily eat adult sailfin molly sized feeders in large quantities. So unless your setting up 300gal stock tanks for feeder breeding/houseing. You're not going to keep up with the demand of your fish. while 50 goldfish can be QTd in a 20 gallon rubbermaid tub easily. setting up 3 such tubs.. and each week buying/feeding out a tub full so your QTing 3 weeks per batch is ideal.

Gar are not your typical tropical fish.
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Please provide a link about the livebearers have MORE thiamine?
 
Diogenes said:
Cyprinidae, Goldfish, and Thiaminase


Thiaminase (There are 2 types, Type I & Type II) is an enzyme.

Enzymes are biological catalysts made of proteins.

A catalyst is a substance that speeds up a chemical reaction without being consumed by that reaction. It makes reactions happen faster. Like if a log rots over 5 years, and you somehow catalyze all the chemical reactions involved & make it rot in 5 minutes.

Our bodies require enzymes to speed some of the chemical reactions required in our metabolism.

Thiaminase destroys Thiamine (Vitamin B1). Rendering it into two molecular parts.

Regular intake of substantial amounts of food containing thiaminase could introduce enough thiaminase into the gut to break down the thiamine in food & render an animal thiamine-deficient.

Some fish contain thiaminase (Type I, not II) and some do not.

Fish that contain Thiaminase:

All members if the family Cyprinidae

White Bass – Morone chrysops

Bowfin – Amia calva

Bream – Abramis brama (Not the U.S. fish; see this link).

Buffalofish – Ictiobus cyprinellus

Bullhead catfish – Ameiurus m. melas

Carp – Cyprinus carpio

Channel Catfish – Ictalurus punctatus

Fathead minnow – Pimephales promelas (the red rosy is a color morph of this fish!)

Garfish (Garpike)

Goldfish – Carassius auratus

Moray Eel – Gymnothorax ocellatus (since someone recently asked about keeping the brackish water species with turtles…)

Gizzard Shad – Dorosoma cepedianum

Spottail Shiner – Notropis hudsonius

Buckeye shiner – Notropis atherinoides

Central Stoneroller – Campostoma anomalum pullum

Common White Sucker – Catostomus commersoni

Lake Whitefish – Coregonus clupeiformis


Like other B complex vitamins, thiamine is considered an "anti-stress" vitamin because it may strengthen the immune system and improve the body's ability to withstand stressful conditions. It is named B1 because it was the first B vitamin discovered.

Thiamine is found in both plants and animals and plays a crucial role in certain metabolic reactions. For example, it is required for the body to form adenosine triphosphate (ATP), which every cell of the body uses for energy.

References:

http://www.umm.edu/altmed/articles/vitamin-b1-000333.htm

www.OPEFE.com

www.piranha-fury.com

http://www.austinsturtlepage.com/Articles/Thiaminase.htm
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A very informative article!


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Stateofficer1984 said:
If you wont a nice catfish that wont outgrow your tank, get a tigrinus catfish!!!
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A little out of my price range i think. Without price checking right now and going off a usually trustworthy memory i believe the last one i seen for sale was $800. A fish that costs more than my tank kind of seems like the equivalent of putting $2000 rims and a $2000 stereo in an '84 caprice...

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MN_Rebel said:
Please provide a link about the livebearers have MORE thiamine?
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I will certaintly look it up it came from a thread siimlar to this a few monthes back.. honestly don't remember if it was from RD or Oddball ( personally I don't question much of what either of them say particularly in reguards to food and nutrition, so maybe I should have.) But I do remember at the time just going "Huh... good to know" so it may have been another member as well.

Truth be told if i am indeed wrong on this it still doesn't matter much in reguards specifically to feeding Gar. as there is no link to thiamine difficencys related to gar eating thiamine rich foods. ( which makes sens since iir the vast majority of US bait fish and fish that would be predated by gar are on the list for haveing known amounts.) I would NEVER advocate feeding Cichlids minnows or goldfish as they in particular seem to have deffinate links to HLLE and thiamine issues ( again my own observations, and these fish where often fed only live, and small amounts to suggest poor overall care besides)

The vast majority of what I'm saying can be found in the Gar subforum stickys.
 
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