Selective Breeding

  • We are currently upgrading MFK. thanks! -neo

Tornfins

Feeder Fish
MFK Member
Feb 11, 2010
78
0
0
Michigan
So whats the overall view on selective breeding? I'm not talking about cross breeding, thats for another day. I'm more so talking about taking a specific fish that has a desired trait and put it with an otherwise stunning fish to so call improve your stock. Example you have a very nice male Grammode color wise but his trailor fins could be better, then you go out and search for and find a nice female with extra-ordinary long pretty trailors is this a match made in heaven or man interfering with nature.:popcorn:
 
well every dog on earth is Canis Lupis, the exact same species just selectively bred.
a pug and a great dane are the same species,
all goldfish forms are carp, as are Koi.

The world is full of selective breeding and thats how they get a lot of the fish we see today to look so great like the red spot severum.
its a wonderful idea it doesnt hurt the fish and it helps them sell meaning they get a better home and life.
 
Sounds a hell of a lot easier than it actually is. You need lots of tanks, money, time and patience. Just because you breed a male Grammodes with longer fins to a normal female doesn't mean you will get a bunch of fry with long fins.

A couple of fry might get it, maybe none. If it's a recessive trait you would need to breed the fry back to its parents. Add to that the amount of time it takes for a Grammodes to reach adulthood, and also you might not even be able to tell whether they have the trait or not until they are adults (trying to house 300 adult Grammodes can't be an easy thing - think of heating, filtration, food, etc). Then you would need to keep breeding the ones with the desired mutation and culling the rest until they reach the point where all their fry posses such trait, all while keeping detailed records of everything. At the same time all this inbreeding will make each generation weaker than the previous one, so you would have to introduce wild stock (fresh genes) into the mix every few generations.

Basically it's a very complicated process and there's no guarantee of success. Those Goldfish/Koi breeders sure deserve a lot of credit.
 
keep the comment coming, not exactly what I was looking for because this isnt like a business adventure that I'm striving to start. I'm more so thinking is this considered man interfering with nature and should location/orgin of the fish be considered and or should we allow the fish to select his own mate by putting groups of fish together and let nature take its course?
 
I get what you're saying, but i don't think it interferes any more than man already does in sometimes very negative ways. Dam projects, introducing invasive species, overfishing, pollution......man already interferes with nature

I think we already have enough of a negative impact that anything we do positively for a species should be a considered a good thing. You can't really force a fish to mate with another fish. You're just making the introduction. The rest comes naturally one way or the other........
 
I have been wondering for some time now if some of these dangerous diseases can be eliminated through proper selective breeding?

This may sound stupid because we are talking about fish but this is done with other animals like dogs. If you do not want certain traits you breed it out and if you want certain desirable traits you breed it into the dogs. This has proven to be quite successful when we look at temperament for some large breeds. We all hear (some of us who are looking for dogs) from breeders “that we breed for temperament”. This means that through time they have been able to breed dogs that were known for their aggressive behavior to become less likely to show that trait. This is just one example of getting rid of an undesirable trait through the proper breeding line.
 
keep the comment coming, not exactly what I was looking for because this isnt like a business adventure that I'm striving to start. I'm more so thinking is this considered man interfering with nature and should location/orgin of the fish be considered and or should we allow the fish to select his own mate by putting groups of fish together and let nature take its course?

It's hard to say because letting nature take its course would mean 90% of the fish we keep in aquariums would have to be randomly culled before adulthood. Most of these fish we keep would never be allowed to breed in the wild, any slow growing fry wouldn't be separated and receive special care, they would be eaten by predators... there's also no antibiotics or UV sterilizers in the wild so fry with weak immune systems would simply die from disease. Just by allowing fish to breed in captivity and saving all of their fry, you're interfering with nature. Selective breeding is just taking it a step further so I don't see anything wrong with it.
 
Man has been selectively breeding fish since like 200AD (colored koi). Many of the most popular and widely kept fish in the hobby were developed as a result of selective breeding and hybridization.

Matt
 
Hybridisation is much easier to achieve tbh, you choose fish with the traits you want.
say an orange fish, and a black fish.
you keep adding whichever you need which not only introduces more of the traits you want, but also fresh genes. its how they have developed some of these really cool looking hybrid and line bred cichlids in Asia.
 
Hybridization as in creating Flowerhorn is not as easy as you make it seem either. White fish + Red fish doesn't equal a perfectly smooth Pink batch of fry. It took many years and a lot of work to produce all those FH variants you see now, and the pretty fish you see everywhere are just a select few individuals that were carefully picked from a bunch of mutts. Like Selective Breeding, many are culled because of deformities, weakness or simply because their traits are not desirable; as evidenced by the reports of messed up river ecosystems in some Asian countries by the mass release of low grade hybrids into the wild.

I think both methods are equally challenging.

Monster fish

Luohan fish-breeders' grotesque 'mistakes' are being dumped in rivers

By Arlina Arshad

IF YOU think luohan fish are ugly, just look at this specimen with its Mick Jagger lips and ball-like body. Probably the result of breeding gone wrong, say marine biologists and those who rear fish.

Enthusiasts have been breeding them, then dumping the 'mistakes' in ponds and rivers.
Photo by CHEW SENG KIM

Two breeders and three other people who rear fish admitted they'd done this. The Sunday Times also spoke to fishermen who have spotted sick and dead luohan, four aquarium owners, two marine biologists, and officials from agencies that have to deal with this problem.

Two luohan breeders said they sought to breed exotic-looking luohan, with blue or white eyes instead of red, or all-blue or all-red bodies instead of the usual red-green-black.

When the experiments went awry, they had to get rid of these mutants with 'elephant-trunk lips' and 'monkey faces'. Neither would agree to be named, fearing flak from fish lovers and repercussions from the authorities.

Said one breeder: 'Some fish had bloated bodies and no humps on the heads; others were skinny and had no fins. What do you expect me to do with them?'

The other one said: 'At least I release them in the water, not like some I know who flush them down toilet bowls!'

LUOHAN BRAINS FOR DINNER, ANYONE?
MOST fish enthusiasts like the look of luohan fish. But there are some who prefer to eat them.

Foreign workers have been known to fish them out of ponds and rivers to supplement their dinner, and at least one fish rearer said he has heard of people cooking them and sucking their brains out with a straw.

'My friend eats it for good luck,' said Mr Jumari Buang, 35, a technician, adding, 'He told me that the bigger the hump on the head, the luckier the eater will be'.

A 30-year-old salesman, who wanted to be known only as Mr Lim, said his friend, who rears luohan, said they tasted yummy when steamed or fried.

'She told me there are too many of them at home.'

The Sunday Times spotted three Thai workers setting a net at a Public Utilities Board pond in Yishun New Town in the middle of the night last week to catch fish, including luohan, to eat.

Fishing is forbidden at the pond, which collects storm water and drains it to Lower Seletar Reservoir. But it goes on.

One man, who wouldn't give his name, said he catches tilapia, parrot fish and luohan for fun.

He said: 'I give them away to passers-by. Singaporeans want to eat tilapia; the Bangladeshis go for luohan.'

Abandoning fish is an offence under the Birds and Animals Act, punishable by a $10,000 fine and 12 months' jail.

'This is an act of cruelty,' said Dr Leow Su Hua, head of the Agri-Food and Veterinary Authority of Singapore's animal welfare education.

Dumping luohan into public ponds can also turn the ponds' ecology upside down, because they are aggressive and breed quickly.

Said Professor Chou Loke Ming of the National University of Singapore's department of biological sciences: 'They may outcompete for food with local species and take over ponds and rivers.'

The National Parks Board (NParks) and Public Utilities Board have found reptiles and non-native fish in ponds, lakes and reservoirs. Said an NParks spokesman: 'The released fish may not survive. They could carry disease and this would affect the native animals in the ponds.'

Luohan fish, also known as flowerhorns, are believed to be descended from wild cichlids. A year or two ago, they were all the rage because people thought they brought good luck. High-quality ones, characterised by red eyes and large humps on their heads, went for as much as $8,000.

But now, they are no longer hot. One breeder said he'd released about 100 into Tengeh and Punggol rivers in the last three years.

He said: 'Some had holes in their heads and others had eyes popping out of their sockets.'

'One had a diseased mouth and rotting lips like this,' he said, turning his lips inside out. 'I couldn't save it; it was too sick.'

Aquarium owners also say people leave buckets of luohan at their doors in the dead of the night.

Madam Shirley Lim, owner of aquarium shop Yun Feng in Pasir Ris, said she would receive 'fish mail' three times a month.

'Nobody wants them any more. They're being chucked into dustbins like those unwanted babies in China. I could sell one at $4,000 last time, but now if I can sell one for $20, I'm very lucky,' she said.

http://www.ecologyasia.com/news-archives/2003/nov-03/straitstimes_031102_1.htm

http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/breeding/Soodhanan_Flowerhorns.html

http://www.iol.co.za/scitech/technology/killer-fish-unleashed-in-malaysia-1.101547

http://library.thinkquest.org/04oct/01027/environmental.html
 
MonsterFishKeepers.com