TheCanuck;4216359; said:Though neither of you know the benefits. Buying that sand has more benefits than you think. Trace elements alone are incredible. He is also using lace rock and not live rock, which a good "live sand" is what he will need. Especially for a Predator or a large community FOWLR. How do you think bio spira is alive? Its live bacteria sealed in a bottle. There are plenty of other live additives as well that can be sealed and stored away until needed use. The vast majority of micro organisms that come in the caribea sea sand is incredible and i stand behind that stuff 100%. While yes sand will become alive, this is his first salt tank and he is going with lace and not live rock. You have to be crazy to tell me live rock is a better bio filter than sand. Thats the biggest joke i have ever heard. Also the idiots who have bare bottom tanks could be 150% more effective by putting sand inside their tanks and taking out the live rock. Why do you think 20,000 gallon tanks are ran off of sand filters.
"Millions of living bacteria per ounce and is proven to reduce nitrates. "
Thats what the bag claims and i have done testing on smaller tanks and watch nitrates disappear because of this stuff.
Arag-Alive has more surface area for bacterial porosity; approximately 20,000 square inches per cubic inch! Arag-Alive will dramatically reduce cycling time in new set-ups because it contains millions of heterotrophic, autotrophic, and chemolithotrophic bacteria.
Arag-Alive has 381,000 ppm calcium, 7,390 ppm strontium, 1050 ppm magnesium, 590,000 ppm carbonate (buffer), 56 ppm potassium, and is lowest in phosphate and has no silica. Arag-Alive also provides molybdenum, barium, boron, selenium, beryllium, and other essential ocean trace elements.
I dont particularly like this exact bag of "live" sand but its claims are unbeatable. While your "getting" by with your play sand you have had to take other extensive measures to add up for what your lacking. May i ask if you can manage a stable ph, good calcium levels, strongtium, and hardness in water? Do you even test these variables? What about your water changes, cause i dump at least a lb a day of food into my system and still have no nitrates. My levels all stay balanced as well. While people argue about the trace elements being necessary i believe the sand gives you an amazing kick start and sets you up for all your element levels, and salt/ replacing them keeps the numbers stable.
I just don't see why people don't understand it is so very important... The two most important things in the ocean are Sand and Algae. Without them the ocean would be a toxic pool.
BTW did you know play sand adds to your phosphates and most other sands will leech over time as well? Ever wonder why you have those algae problems?
ALSO heres a quote from kevin888. He is a saltwater genius, and will get into the deepest depths of any facts you want to know about saltwater.
"This is somewhat true, I don't disagree that live rock is a good biofilter, but sand is better period. The misconseption that live rock is the most important biofiltration was created by the people who sell live rock so they can sell more.
You would be surprized how effective a DSB can be, you don't need hundreds gallons of water flowing through your bio every second for it to work. The Nitrogen compounds disperce through the water, and therefore when there is a lower concentration in the sand due to consumption the Nitrogen flows to the area of low concentration, thats just basic chemisty/biology, high flows to low untill equal.
Infact with a proper DSB running a fork through can nuke your system as it will cause a huge dieout in the micro inverts that live in your sand, but when not disturbed will never cause a problem. The idea is to have a diverce ecosystem contained in the sand, full of pods, micro stars, worms, bacteria, snales, etc when up to a proper population these critters will maintain you DSB perfectly. Their population/movement will stir the sand so much more then you could ever hope to do (yes they are small but there is millions of them and they move allll day), allowing propper flow of nutrients in and out of the sand, wile preventing the "nuke".""
I would listen to this guy, hes is going to be the first to breed tangs
So while no its not that big of a deal if you don't buy live sand. Just want to make sure your aware of all the facts, and not the marketing strategies. If you buy live rock then sure you can get away with cheap sand, but i have failed my only "play sand" tank while doing this. Nitrates where out the roof, and algae everywhere. Could have just been ****ty sand.
Basically we agree. I wouldn't use play sand in an marine aquarium for much of the reasons you mentioned. And forgive me because It has been a very long while since I have ran a marine aquarium. Most of my understanding comes from the year of research I have done before starting back into Marine aquariums and also from my limited experience with the tank I have been running for just over 2 months.
I completely understand the mineral and trace element benefits of Aragonite and those boasted in "Live Sand" products. I personally supplied these elements by using a high quality Marine salt. I do however have some trouble understanding how a manufacturer can provide the "Live" component when it is a highly controversial issue that the most desirable and effective beneficial bacteria found in an aquarium do not achieve a spore state. It is also highly debated through out the industry that many of the BB products that do not require refrigeration in fact use "Other" species of BB (that can be stored in a spore state) that are less effective and shorter lived which is why they require multiple dosings and higher quantities of BB per ounce. Furthermore many contend that these "Other" species of BB merely keep the ball rolling while the tank establishes the "Real" BB required to maintain the cycle in the long haul. The "Spore State" issue, if true makes it impossible to store the most desirable BB in any condition other than active (which is the products that require refrigeration). As far as the other micro organisms that are defiantly needed (Once again this is only from research) I have found many reef keepers buy them separately and add them to their aquariums. I admit I am a pure novice in this arena and am willing to learn all I can, however it seems logical to me that if they came with the "Live Sand" no one would be purchasing them or collecting them in the wild as so many reef keepers do on a regular basis when setting up marine aquariums. Please clarify these points for me?
Additionally if you read through my detailed journal you will notice that the tank I am currently running was completely cycled in about 5 days with no "Live Sand" only "Live Rock" which I have observed came with several species of creatures.
, i do believe they are in there. Bio spira always needed to be refrigerated, like you stated. I used this stuff for all my salt tanks and instantly cycled and produced nothing more than nitrates with my live sand and power heads. Now it doesn't need to be refrigerated, funny i know but it still works, and i have results with it. Many fresh water sands boast live as well, and i think they have found a way to harness these micro organisms( and smaller worms etc) in a bag that can last a long time. This brings me to another point of how i use to buy live sand with water in the bag, and now there is no water. I think the science and understanding of these bacteria are more and more advanced. While people think bacteria and micros die off easy, thats so very far from the truth. I don't actually have the facts, nor the links. I can't go into deep depths of it because i really don't know other than my personal experience with the stuff, and the results this great product has always granted me. Also the time i used cheap sand and was pissed when i killed a V tail grouper. While even if the bacteria and micros where all dead, Live sand is cheaper than LR, and can cure rocks fast. Also i read your comment of reefers dosing addtional worms etc, i think this is mostly for refugiums, and such to have a heavy concentrated area of decomposition of amon trite and trate.
It is a point of confusion for me as well. I have been researching this for quite some time and have yet to get satisfactory answers on it. I would love to see what he has to say on it as well. Thanx for your input on it though. It is a really interesting topic and many of the manufacturers keep it veiled in secrecy as if they are curing the common cold or something...rotfl
