Shipping Rays Looking for Advice

[Raymann88]

I'm looking for some feedback from the group. Recently I purchased 3 ray pups from the US to be shipped. I informed the seller that I was in Canada and that the rays would need to clear customs. I hired a broker to do the paperwork and clear customs. The rays were shipped to a storage facility just south of the border and a courier was hired to bring them across the border and deliver. I mentioned to the seller that the rays could be in transit for as long as 48 hours (in case of any delays) and asked to have them packaged for that long of shipping (and was willing to pay extra). The rays were shipped UPS for end of day delivery next day. The rays arrived at the storage place at 11:00am, cleared the border at 2:30 and were being dripped by 6:00pm that evening. Rays were 24 hours in transit..

When I got the box, I opened it up and saw that each ray was shipped in it's own bag inside of one large bag. The bags were completely deflated and only had a couple of inches of water in them. Rays were alive. They were not very active. When I let the first ray out of the bag into a tub to drip them in, it immediately floated to top and curled it's disk. After a bit it settled to the bottom but didn't move much. The other 2 rays just sat in the bottom of the container when let out of their bags. I dripped the rays for 2 hours using an airline tube with a control valve and then placed the rays in a 90 gallon tank that has been up and running for 2 years with angelfish and bristlenose plecos. I removed the other fish that morning. Tank has 1- Aquaclear 110, 2 Aquaclear 70's and a large sponge filter and the water level was lowered to allow for more surface agitation and increased oxygen. Tank lights were off. After 2 hours I used a small tub to transport the rays into the tank (no net or handling). The pup that had curled in the drip tub settled to the bottom, curled and died shortly after. The other 2 pups sat on the bottom and were not active. This morning one of the other pups was curled on the bottom of the tank and the last one is sitting in one spot lifting it's disk.

Shipping info at time receiving shipment:
box - 16" x 16" x 12"h
individual ray bags - each 12" x 22" inside one large bag
water level in each individual bag 2" +/-
some water was in the large bag
air level in bags - bags deflated (you can see in the picture of the box that the bags were collapsed)
none of the pups had their stingers clipped - about 1/4" of ends of stingers were white
later water test of bags revealed multiple pinholes
pups 5" +/- and 6 weeks old

Seller is refusing refund stating that the rays were alive when I got them and that is all that counts. I'm asking for a refund as I feel the rays died due to poor state of shipping and although alive at time of receiving them, clearly they were stressed. Fish should be shipped for the health and welfare of the fish and not just to survive transport. Am I reasonable is asking for a full refund for the fish? It cost me an additional $600 in broker and courier fees that I would be absorbing.

I should mention that I have been keeping fish for over 15 years, currently have a fish room with 24 tanks with rays, angelfish, plecos, etc., have imported rays (pups, juveniles and adults) from the UK, Germany and the US as well as multiple imports of other fish from the US.

 

[stratos]

Sorry to hear of your problems.

Your experience shows the importance of videoing the "unboxing" of expensive fish, especially rays. If you had a non stop video of the unboxing, showing the apparent distress of the rays on arrival, my guess is that the vendor would be more understanding. Did you take a reading of the Ph in the shipping bags? How did it differ from the Ph in your tank? Ammonia readings done on video on arrival (in bags and in tank) would help prove your case too.

As you probably know, rays are notoriously tricky for shipping, especially if the stinger has not been clipped or covered. Ideally you would have in advance discussed with the seller how to handle DOA's, death within 24 hours, or fish arriving in distress that never get better and eventually die.

If I was the seller, I think I would offer you replacement fish at no cost, with you the buyer being responsible for paying all the new shipping costs. This is typically how it works with the big exporters. I have shipped a lot of rays and arowana and that is the approach I usually take. It gets tricky if the fish arrive live and then die in the tank. That's why it is so important to agree to terms prior to making the purchase. I have on occasion shipped rays with only a live arrival guarantee and no more. The reason for that is usually because I am trans-shipping the rays and have not even opened the bag myself. In these cases if the rays die, I often end up becoming an intermediary between the buyer and the seller and attempt to negotiate a settlement.

 

[kno4te]

What’s the sellers shipping policy?

 

[Raymann88]

Sorry to hear of your problems.

Your experience shows the importance of videoing the "unboxing" of expensive fish, especially rays. If you had a non stop video of the unboxing, showing the apparent distress of the rays on arrival, my guess is that the vendor would be more understanding. Did you take a reading of the Ph in the shipping bags? How did it differ from the Ph in your tank? Ammonia readings done on video on arrival (in bags and in tank) would help prove your case too.

As you probably know, rays are notoriously tricky for shipping, especially if the stinger has not been clipped or covered. Ideally you would have in advance discussed with the seller how to handle DOA's, death within 24 hours, or fish arriving in distress that never get better and eventually die.

If I was the seller, I think I would offer you replacement fish at no cost, with you the buyer being responsible for paying all the new shipping costs. This is typically how it works with the big exporters. I have shipped a lot of rays and arowana and that is the approach I usually take. It gets tricky if the fish arrive live and then die in the tank. That's why it is so important to agree to terms prior to making the purchase. I have on occasion shipped rays with only a live arrival guarantee and no more. The reason for that is usually because I am trans-shipping the rays and have not even opened the bag myself. In these cases if the rays die, I often end up becoming an intermediary between the buyer and the seller and attempt to negotiate a settlement.

Thanks for the feedback and great idea on videotaping the whole unpacking. The rays were drip acclimated so there shouldn't have been a Ph shock introducing them into the tank. The rays inside the bag "looked fine" when I first picked them up. They were breathing but not moving much which can be normal for a fish in shipping. The rays were double bagged, and the water had leaked between the bags and it was not very clear to see inside the bag. I had a 2 hour drive from where I picked them up and didn't open the bags until I got home.

I did discuss with the seller in advance regarding shipping requirements and indicated they could be as long as 48 hours in transit, needed to clear customs and had a 2 hour drive before I got home and asked him to ship accordingly. I was even willing to pay extra for shipping (bigger box and bags, more weight, etc.). Seller assured me they would be fine. To receive the rays in such a small box, stingers not clipped and the bags deflated was very upsetting especially since I had requested additional care. When I sent pictures to the seller of the rays in the deflated bag, his response was "are there any holes in the bags because I didn't clip their stingers". I tested the bags afterward filling them with water and they all had several holes in them.

I believe and in talking with many experienced shippers, that the poor shipping practice severely stressed the rays during shipping. Yes they arrived alive, but in a state of distress and succumbed to their distress. I also discovered that the seller had a post on Instagram that the rays were born on March 12. I was told they were 6 weeks old.

Had they arrived properly shipped and then died in my care afterwards, that would be totally different.

 

[Raymann88]

What’s the sellers shipping policy?

To me, a shipper's policy is only applicable if the fish are properly shipped. Obvious negligence on behalf of the shipper should be honoured if the fish arrive distressed and die within 24 hours or receiving them.

 

[Galantspeedz]

Did you ship by land or air?

For air, it is best not to inflate the bag fully as air will expand in the sky. That's what i heard.

I have brought a pair of rays back via air with less water and space than yours with no issue. Total time about 18hrs

to be objective, i would at most refund for the first ray if there is video of this --------->>>>>>>>>>>> When I let the first ray out of the bag into a tub to drip them in, it immediately floated to top and curled it's disk.

 

[DIDYSIS]

Sorry to hear about your troubles. As someone who has shipped a lot of stingrays, experience has taught me allot but also the ability to get feed back from customers has been great. I've asked them to check in bag temps and lots of stuff and have luckily knock on wood never lost a stingray being shipped. I also know where and about how long they are going for and know my limits and needs to get them there but also stuff can happen along the way that is honestly out of control at times.
Now the part about opening the bag and seeing the ray is in Distress.... well the fish was netted, bagged, clipped usually and sloshed around allot and moved a ton to get there to the location. Of course its a bit off its game from the start of it all just when they looked into the tank to net it i am sure of didn't feed it for a few days.
So you as a buyer saying the stingray was in distress is not winning me any points. I have gotten fish before that have not moved at all on opening and then once I get the drip going for a while with fresh water and what at some point they seem to kick in and get back to it all.
I have also come up with a very good set of shipping unboxing and everything instructions to be followed to the letter but also know hey when you get them in your water and what its your fish and I cant control everything. Lots to learn if you do and dont get a refund or what about fish keeping and how to look through vendors and such to deal with. Best wishes for your rays. Hope they are doing ok

 

[Matteus]

Sorry to hear about your troubles. As someone who has shipped a lot of stingrays, experience has taught me allot but also the ability to get feed back from customers has been great. I've asked them to check in bag temps and lots of stuff and have luckily knock on wood never lost a stingray being shipped. I also know where and about how long they are going for and know my limits and needs to get them there but also stuff can happen along the way that is honestly out of control at times.
Now the part about opening the bag and seeing the ray is in Distress.... well the fish was netted, bagged, clipped usually and sloshed around allot and moved a ton to get there to the location. Of course its a bit off its game from the start of it all just when they looked into the tank to net it i am sure of didn't feed it for a few days.
So you as a buyer saying the stingray was in distress is not winning me any points. I have gotten fish before that have not moved at all on opening and then once I get the drip going for a while with fresh water and what at some point they seem to kick in and get back to it all.
I have also come up with a very good set of shipping unboxing and everything instructions to be followed to the letter but also know hey when you get them in your water and what its your fish and I cant control everything. Lots to learn if you do and dont get a refund or what about fish keeping and how to look through vendors and such to deal with. Best wishes for your rays. Hope they are doing ok

DIDYSIS do you have these instructions posted on here or is it more of for your own personal guidelines that you have in your own set up? I would be interested in reading it if you don’t mind.