Short Body Pink Cons

[Toby_H]

Jelly bean parrots are hybrids between a midas and I believe a severum. Short body convicts are just a genetic mutation of a regular convict.

　
I agree that “Jelly Bean Parrots” are a hybrid…
　
Although I am under the impression that “Short Bodied” Convicts are a hybrid between the JB Parrot and Convicts…
　
　

I imagine they'd have stubby pink babies. Why would the outcome differ?

　
Despite the complexity of this conversation, I agree with your simple conclusion
　
　

I think when you're a fish being pink and stubby are recessive genes and two fish with recessive genes cant breed true. Like how two ebjds don't necessarily make more ebjds they just have regular jack dempseys. i believe pink cons are leucistic so not sure how that translates genetically and being short bodied? I was hoping that there might be a possibility of them throwing a few.

　
A few mistakes here…
　
Two fish that express sub dominant traits do breed true…
　
Breeding a Blue Dempseys with a Blue Dempsey will result in 100% Blue Dempseys… This is not the recommended method for producing Blue Dempseys but for different reasons.
　
Pink Cons are Leucistic though
　
　
Zander_The_RBP, you obviously know what you are talking about and I am not suggesting you are wrong, but a few points…
　

recessive genes always breed true if both parents exhibit the trait becuase if you receive a random gene from your mother and a random one from your father and the only genes offered are both a copies of the same recessive you will end up wwith 2 copies of the recessive and thereofre exhibit the trait

　
I think you would be more clear/accurate if you used the term “sub-dominant” in place of “recessive” here…
　
A trait/gene would only be classified as “recessive” if/when it is in the heterogeneous state. I wish the fish hobby would embrace the term het or heterogeneous and let go of it’s overuse of the term “recessive” and stop making up terms like “blue gene”… but I digress…
　
　

NOW if you breed a normal to a pink con(for example as this works with every organism on the planet) you get what is called a het (slang for heterozygeous) this means it carries a copy of the recessive and a copy of the dominant gene counterpart, the dominant gene "overshadows" the recessive and you do not see the recessive gene at all in the outward apearance( Phenotype)of the animal but the genetic makeup (genotype) is different from a true non-het animal that has no recessive gene

　
I again think you would be more clear replacing “recessive” with “subdominant” here but you are completely accurate…
　
There are some examples where a Heterogeneous specimen displays symptoms of the subdominant trait on top of or along with the primary display of the dominant trait. I am aware of some examples in reptiles and birds, but I’ve never seen an example in regards to fish. But in the majority of cases you are right, a heterogeneous specimen will appear as the wild type phenotype (in other words normal).
　
　

those only apply for simple recessives and simple dominants there are much more complicated genes, (such as co-dominants) that are very confusing

　
Mendelian Genetics is the term used to describe the method of passing genes we are discussing here. It is the most common and one of the simplest methods of passing traits/genes… And it gets unlimitedly complicated from there…
　
　

i think for example if what you say about EDJD's is true they would be an example of co-dominance (i will explain that if someone wants me to although theres are probably a ton of other people on here who can also explain)

　
I’m somewhat familiar with Co-Dominance in regards to genetics, but it is far to complicated of a topic for me to attempt to wrap into a nut shell. Some things are just to complicated to put forth in a simple format… and in doing so to much detail is lost and it becomes inaccurate… again, I digress...

　

yep leme see if i can pull up a diagram that explains it better than i could in words (called a punnet square)

　
Punnet Squares are great for displaying Mendelian Genetics…
　
But when dealing with multiple recessive qualities or dominant/subdominant gene combinations we can quickly make them irrelevant or at least quite difficult to apply… but for singular examples they work marvelously…
　
　
Again, Zander_The_RBP, you are obviously well read on the topic and have a thorough understanding of what you’ve read. I’m not saying anything you’ve provided is “wrong”…
　
　

If you breed two short body pink cons together what will be the possible outcome?
This is assuming that Jelly Bean Parrots are short body pink cons.

　
I am very very confident that breeding a “Short Bodied Pink Convict” with a “Short Bodied Convict” will result in all “Short Bodied Convicts”…
　
The “Pink” quality is Leucism which follows Mendelian Genetics… and per Mendelian Genetics: Leucistic Specimen x Leucistic Specimen results in 100% Leucistic offspring…
　
If I am wrong and the “Short Bodied” quality follows Mendelian Genetics, or is a recessive quality… Then the above will hold true for this quality as well thus resulting in 100% “Short Bodied” offspring…
　
If I am correct and the “Short Bodied” quality is the result of hybridization…
　
While hybridizing two different looking fish together will result in a range of results varying from the father, to the mother, and any combination of the two…
　
When crossing two hybrids that look the same, the resultant offspring will also vary from the father to the mother, which are the same… thus the offspring will look the same as the parents…
　
　
Fun conversation…

 

[unkle_billy]

The guys in the hybrid section are extremely adamant about jelly bean parrots just being short bodied pink convicts and I think they might be right. Either way they they still breed true according to nutcases fine reply.
I find it a little strange that with the abundance of jelly bean parrots that there wouldn't be more reports of breeding success if they breed as prolifically as convicts. Has anyone ever seen jelly bean parents with fry in their lives?
Once again professor nutcase thank you for you fine answer.

 

[izzy_here]

If I am correct and the “Short Bodied” quality is the result of hybridization…

The short body gene, as well as many other's...

When crossing two hybrids that look the same, the resultant offspring will also vary from the father to the mother, which are the same… thus the offspring will look the same as the parents…

...act in the same manner as an inheritable subdominant, in hybrid fish. Irridescent pearl shaped markings, fin/body type etc.

In other words normal genes within any given species gene pool take the role of a normal (dominant) gene until they are introduced to the genetic's of another species, at which point they take on the role of an inheritable subdominant mutation.

Some of the traits passed on from hybrid to hybrid enter the mendelian in complexity, such as the gene for nuchal humps. It is inheritable and does express itself phenotypically in conjunction with a plethora of other phenotypes....hmm. Thinking of it that way...perhaps its more accurate for me to say that all the genes present in for example a King Kamfa Flowerhorn are codominant? If you look carefully at such a fish you can easily see the influences of most (if not all) of the parent species involved in it's creation. Traits from each parent species express phenotypically in conjunction with one another. Bit over simplified, but perhaps somewhat accurate?

Going back to the sb gene...not sure exactly where it came from. Obviously manmade, I too believe it is the result of hybridization, sort of...it actually is a naturally occuring trait, ballon belly mollies, rams etc, I doubt they have any blood parrot in them. But in this case the orginal parrot hybrid, (whose true orgins will probably remain shrouded in mystery infamy? forever) just so happened to carry this short body gene, I theorize that the method of hybridization or possibly even the act itself (no matter which method was used, hybridization between the chosen species would have produced sb young) prompted this mutation. The sb gene in blood parrot fish may have been somewhat artificial in it's creation but it is also totally inheritable.

My experience in breeding sb fish is limited, but it seems to act in much the same manner as any subdom trait. Abeit with more variability in the first few generations than you might expect from a typical subdom gene. Another oddity is that you might see sb fry result from the intial sb to normal mating.

Interesting application of genetics, a very fun conversation indeed nc_nutcase.

 

[izzy_here]

Abeit with more variability in the first few generations than you might expect from a typical subdom gene.

A bit off topic...I remember when I was breeding pied button quail...a simple subdominant trait. In the first few generations I saw white wingtips and white wings...then white bellies...in the end I had a bird with white body and wings with a stripe of whichever base color running down the back. I think some purebred dog breeders (and some Flowerhorn breeders for that matter) would call this process "refining the breed", common practice with any selectively bred animal kept as a pet.

 

[BigO6687]

old thread..

but i have a pair with their first batch of fry, shortbody male, regular female.

we'll see what happens..

 

[izzy_here]

I have one pair sb male X regular with one more pairing like this possible, and possible multiple pairings of normal male to sb female.

 

[izzy_here]

One of my pairs finally spawned, normal Escondido male to sb green texas female. Looks like I'll (hopefully!) get to test some of my theories out.

 

[importracer]

If you breed two short body pink cons together what will be the possible outcome?
This is assuming that Jelly Bean Parrots are short body pink cons.

The short bodied variety breeds just like the regular........Give it two weeks, and you will see a spawn swimming about the tank.............As for the comparison of the EBJD, it gives me a headache wondering, so try and breed a pair jellybeans.............

 

[izzy_here]

From what I can figure the short body gene is a dominant trait. Short body to normal will produce 50% short body, short body to short body will produce 100% short body. I also suspect it has a homozygous expression, because two F1's will produce F2 fry that are shorter and rounder than either parent.