Should I transfer my catfish?

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divemaster99

Dovii
MFK Member
Jan 10, 2014
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Pittsburgh, PA
I actually just started a thread yesterday about one of these fish and mentioned I would be making this, but anyways. My 75 gallon has been cycling for 4 weeks and just finished a few days ago (ammonia <0.25, Nitrite 0.0, nitrate 5.0) I do find it odd that my nitrate is not continuing to rise but I do only have a few fish in it now with powerful filtration. Regardless, it is done with the ammonia and nitrite so I count it as cycled. Currently I have a striped raphael catfish and a sailfin pleco in my 30 tall both just 3" waiting to be moved into my 75. I am almost certain the pleco will be fine since he is a VERY hardy species but I am skeptical about the raphael. While the tank is done cycling I have read a few things saying that raphael catfish should only go in mature tanks since a almost any ammonia can kill them. My 75 while not mature has next to no if not no detectable ammonia in it right now and raphael cats are very hardy from my experience. My question is whether I am good to transfer them now or should a wait a week or to. My tank finished cycling on Tuesday if that matters.

options:

1. Move them both today

2. Move them both in a week

3. Move the pleco now and the catfish in a week

4. Move the pleco now and the catfish in a month

5. Other (please specify)


thanks for your input!
 
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Here is the test from 5 minutes ago. Seems to be the same if not less nitrates. Almost like I am reverse cycling but I know that isn't possible.

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During cycling, both NH3 and NO2 normally fluctuate, sometimes increasing, other times decreasing; sometimes disappearing, other times appearing.

Generally, the tank can be proclaimed as cycled with some surety when NH3 and NO2 are firmly zero by this liquid API test for a week or so under the continuing bio-load. Even if NH3 is zero for a day or a few, one cannot be sure it does not pop up again.

Yours never been at even zero yet. So, I'd have patience for another couple of weeks while feeding the bacteria adequately.

4 weeks is a more or less expected period when everything is done well and the tank's been sufficiently seeded with the bacteria from day 1.

6-8 weeks is the average term without seeding.
 
4 weeks is a more or less expected period when everything is done well and the tank's been sufficiently seeded with the bacteria from day 1.

6-8 weeks is the average term without seeding.

I honestly think that the ammonia is 0 from looking at it. I also did use seeded gravel from my 30 gallon as well as 32oz of fritzzyme to cycle. The water parameters have been the same for nearly a week as well so I am thinking there shouldn't be any more spikes. And if there is any ammonia showing, my 30 always tested for ammonia around that, I figured it was nearly undetectable so it shouldn't be any harm to the fish, and it hasn't been.
 
I honestly think that the ammonia is 0 from looking at it. I also did use seeded gravel from my 30 gallon as well as 32oz of fritzzyme to cycle. The water parameters have been the same for nearly a week as well so I am thinking there shouldn't be any more spikes. And if there is any ammonia showing, my 30 always tested for ammonia around that, I figured it was nearly undetectable so it shouldn't be any harm to the fish, and it hasn't been.

IME photos do not convey right colors. From the photo, the vial on the left does not match the yellow color on the chart but is close to the 0.25 ppm. But I'd trust your eye over any picture unless you know you have a problem with color perception - no joke, color perception differs and sometimes significantly between healthy people, that's why a reference, such as a test of your tap water, is good to include.

It is a well known rule of our hobby that NH3 most normally, almost always should read ZERO on that test. Surely it is not zero on a more sensitive, laboratory test but on that crude (but the best widely available to us hobbyists) test it should be zero at all times in an adequately-run tank.

Now, some chemicals can skew the ammonia test - dyes or murkiness in the water that color it; as well as e.g., certain medications such as Acridine which bear a nitrogen atom in a certain valence state.

To sum up, if you eliminate all possibilities and your water still shows non-zero NH3 by the API test (and double check it by a friend's test kit and/or at your LFS and juxtapose it with the same test of your water source/tap water), most likely your bio-load exceeds your bio-filtration capacity and there is room for improvement.
 
IME photos do not convey right colors. From the photo, the vial on the left does not match the yellow color on the chart but is close to the 0.25 ppm. But I'd trust your eye over any picture unless you know you have a problem with color perception - no joke, color perception differs and sometimes significantly between healthy people, that's why a reference, such as a test of your tap water, is good to include.

It is a well known rule of our hobby that NH3 most normally, almost always should read ZERO on that test. Surely it is not zero on a more sensitive, laboratory test but on that crude (but the best widely available to us hobbyists) test it should be zero at all times in an adequately-run tank.

Now, some chemicals can skew the ammonia test - dyes or murkiness in the water that color it; as well as e.g., certain medications such as Acridine which bear a nitrogen atom in a certain valence state.

To sum up, if you eliminate all possibilities and your water still shows non-zero NH3 by the API test (and double check it by a friend's test kit and/or at your LFS and juxtapose it with the same test of your water source/tap water), most likely your bio-load exceeds your bio-filtration capacity and there is room for improvement.


I just oust tested for ammonia again and I also tested for ammonia out of the tap. The both measured absolutely 0 this time (I think it varies a lot with the manual tests like you said). I don't have the best far away sight but my color perception is perfect, I also had 2 other people look at the two vials next to each other and they both said they look the same: 0.

The only thing that could possibly be interfering with color is the large amount of tannins in the water from my driftwood.
 
Great. I'd strive to keep it at that; even after good feedings, the goal is zero NH3 and zero NO2.

... (I think it varies a lot with the manual tests like you said)...

I am afraid this is not what I implied. Improperly kept tests can spoil. Old tests can expire. Tests can also be used not consistently correctly.

Normally, there should be consistency within the tests from one test kit and from kit to kit. I am yet to be met with two "good" test kits that would show inconsistency or a variation notable to the eye if both tests were administered correctly, e.g., shaken; bottles held vertically down for a consistent droplet size; no gunk on the bottle opening; and so on.
 
Generally, the tank can be proclaimed as cycled with some surety when NH3 and NO2 are firmly zero by this liquid API test for a week or so under the continuing bio-load. Even if NH3 is zero for a day or a few, one cannot be sure it does not pop up again.

Ok, now I understand. So you're saying that if the bioload doesn't fluctuate, it may only be able to have so much bacteria with the limited amount of ammonia available. If that's the case though, wouldn't the only way to get more bacteria be to add more fish therefor increasing the amount of ammonia for the bacteria to eat or could I just over feed the tank to make more detritus which would decompose into ammonia. (Wish I knew all this when I was cycling my first tank).
 
Ok, now I understand. So you're saying that if the bioload doesn't fluctuate, it may only be able to have so much bacteria with the limited amount of ammonia available.

*** Yes and no. Simplistically - yes. Bacteria are animals too that need to breath, eat, metabolize, excrete, procreate, etc. NH3 and NO2 is their food. On average (time-average), there is a "steady-state" concentration of these chemicals in the water and it determines the amount of the "mouths" = bacteria.

Why no? There are other factors. Most importantly, bacteria need oxygen. So, at the same bio-load, the tank with better aeration can have more bacteria in the substrate and in the filter. But bio-load is never steady and neither is BOD Biochemical oxygen demand http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biochemical_oxygen_demand - they both creep up.

After each feeding, the bio-load increases and the BOD increases because the bio-mass increases (waste, detritus, fish get bigger, etc.) - that's why when the filter and the substrate get dirty or real dirty, there is a danger to kick back/stifle/suffocate all living things in the tank, including the fish and the bacteria and "uncycle" your tank. After cleaning, the bio-mass strongly decreases (= less food) but so does the BOD (= more oxygen), thus largely cancelling out each other.

Chemical composition of water, hardness, salinity, pH, temperature, etc. all have an effect on this but crudely speaking of lesser importance, but nevertheless...

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If that's the case though, wouldn't the only way to get more bacteria be to add more fish therefor increasing the amount of ammonia for the bacteria to eat or could I just over feed the tank to make more detritus which would decompose into ammonia. (Wish I knew all this when I was cycling my first tank).

*** Keeping the above in mind, yes. To get more bacteria - give them more food and more oxygen BUT this process is limited by the surface space on which the bacteria can live (and to which surfaces both food and oxygen have a free, uninhibited access). When there is no more space for them to colonize, giving food and oxygen becomes fruitless.

Analogous "space" thinking applies to dirt - it takes up the space, covers useful surfaces, makes for an uneven flow inside the filter and creates semi-dead and dead spots, and, thus, hinders the access/diffusion of both food and oxygen to the bacterial colonies making them kick back and die off bit by bit as the dirt accumulates. The dirt particles can be settled with bacteria too but since the dirt is not suspended in the water column (= unhindered food and oxygen), this will not have any notable mitigating effect.

That's why I prefer a fishless cycling by utilizing either fish food decomposition or ammonia solutions.

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This and much, much more can be found in various far, far better written articles on tank cycling on the net, in books, etc. Every time I read and re-read them I understand more and/or find something new. The rules of the healthy tank-keeping are simple. Understanding why is not at all. But it is the understanding that helps some the most. Others can just remember the rules and be content :)
 
Most prominent hobbyists, experts, and ichthyologists profess that THE MOST overlooked factor in our hobby is oxygen and not understanding how and why it is needed and how crucial it is to every living thing in the mini-eco-systems we create in our tanks.

I am a part of this sad statistics. I've kept thousands of fish of hundreds of kinds. 99% of my losses were due to oxygen issues.

I think it is because we are from the different element - air. We take for granted our breathing and oxygen's omnipresence but understand better non-omnipresent food, appetite, hunger, temp, waste, and other bodily functions.

We tend to forget that our tanks are indeed a form of LIFE SUPPORT, just like for a person in an intensive care unit. The machines and the care keep people there and fish here alive. If the ventilator malfunctions or stops, we all know what happens... but when we look at our beloved friends behind the glass, we tend to forget they live in a different element - water, where the oxygen rules are dramatically different - and they are on the "ventilator" and hence, are critically dependent on how well this "ventilator" (proper aeration of fish and bacteria) meets their needs.
 
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