Sick Baby Oscars - I don't know what this is.

  • We are currently upgrading MFK. thanks! -neo
framcosco said:
STOP the medications. The only time I recommend meds for external parasites are those that cannot be eradicated by salt & higher temps such as gill flukes, velvet, etc. Ich can be very easily controlled/get rid of as long as you follow some basic steps:

--50% Water change (twice a week is fine) -- you seem to have a low bio-load.
--Add carbon to take out as much meds as possible -- you don't need meds for ich.
--temp at 86 is good -- do add an airstone as oxygen is depleted at higher temps.
--add salt -- recommended dosage is 1 to 3 tablespoons for every 5 gallons. I'd recommend 2 tablespoons for every 5 gallons. -- remember to add salt only for the amount of water taken out during water changes.
-- continue to keep your filtration on -- actually, depending on the meds you used, the meds may have decreased/wiped out your good bacteria. Use media from an established tank if possible.
-- do not share nets etc with your other tanks as you run a very good chance of contaminating other tanks
-- this is the part many do not follow, hence the re-occurrence of ich in an already treated tank -- you must treat with high temps & salt for a minimum of 3 WEEKS to make sure it is gone. Just because it is no longer visible, does not mean it is not present.

follow these simple steps, & you will be good. O's are hardy & should have no problems with the higher temps & salt.

p.s. If I were you, take all the substrate out. Consider this tank your hospital tank. best of luck.
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Sounds like an opportunity for me to learn something. IME using something like rid-ich helps cut down on recovery time for ich. I had a 100g that had an ich outbreak. I raised the temp to about 86F and added salt, which made it go away. I returned things to normal about a week after symptoms went away (not long enough) and it returned a few weeks later. When it returned I used rid-ich (if memory serves me correctly) and the ich went away faster the 2nd time and never returned (although I did keep treatment up for longer after the symptoms went away the 2nd time)

I know medications dont kill the ich directly, but my understanding is the heat speeds up the lifecycle, and the meds prevent the newly hatched ich from attaching to fish so they never develop into adults. I believe increased salinity has the same affect. I typically avoid meds when ever possible, but IME for ich fish can recover faster (not a guarentee I know) with proper meds. That is why i recommended it in this case since he has already lost a fish.

I was just wondering if you feel that the harm to the good bacteria is why you are recommending to discontinue the use of meds, or if your experience has shown a problem I have not thought about.
 
tomomothy said:
Sounds like an opportunity for me to learn something. IME using something like rid-ich helps cut down on recovery time for ich. I had a 100g that had an ich outbreak. I raised the temp to about 86F and added salt, which made it go away. I returned things to normal about a week after symptoms went away (not long enough) and it returned a few weeks later. When it returned I used rid-ich (if memory serves me correctly) and the ich went away faster the 2nd time and never returned (although I did keep treatment up for longer after the symptoms went away the 2nd time)

I know medications dont kill the ich directly, but my understanding is the heat speeds up the lifecycle, and the meds prevent the newly hatched ich from attaching to fish so they never develop into adults. I believe increased salinity has the same affect. I typically avoid meds when ever possible, but IME for ich fish can recover faster (not a guarentee I know) with proper meds. That is why i recommended it in this case since he has already lost a fish.

I was just wondering if you feel that the harm to the good bacteria is why you are recommending to discontinue the use of meds, or if your experience has shown a problem I have not thought about.
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I will be more than happy to respond. Meds DO NOT cut down "recovery time" for ich. Recovery time can increase/decrease contingent upon temperature as this increases/decreases the ich LIFE CYCLE. There are other ways to eradicate ich "quicker" but that is beyond the scope of this thread. Meds DO kill ich in the free swimming form. You cannot in anyway shape or form compare the effectiveness/efficiency of salt/high temps to meds in your case. You yourself admitted to using the salt/heat treatment for too short of a time period. If you look at my previous post I wrote, "-- this is the part many do not follow, hence the re-occurrence of ich in an already treated tank -- you must treat with high temps & salt for a minimum of 3 WEEKS to make sure it is gone. Just because it is no longer visible, does not mean it is not present." Salt/temp treatment is effective 99% of the time to treat ich. I say 99% of the time because there is such a thing as a "super" ich parasite, but this is a RARE occurrence. There are some fish that do not tolerate salt well at all, & meds may be a good choice under these circumstances. If you encounter this super ich parasite where salt/temp is not working, again meds may be a good choice. Meds are also much more a pain in the butt when administering, ---- rid ich+ & such meds require water changes everyday. Some of these meds will reduce the good bacteria and/or wipe out your good bacteria. In general, meds will stress out fish more as it is more taxing on them. So, since the OP said he lost a fish already, this is more reason NOT to use the meds. Salt, other than killing ich, have positive effects on the fish that may reduce stress. Salt/high temp treatment has proven itself effective against ich --hands down the best combo against ich -- no need for meds. Ich is one of the most wonderful diseases in the fish hobby. Why? Because it is easily identifiable, easily cured (as long as you follow all steps), & can be permanently eliminated from your tank (of course until you introduce a new fish you did not quarantine).

also remember, salt stays in the water column until you do water changes, meaning that for the context of our conversation, salt does not have a half life-- its effectiveness stays at 100% all the time. Meds on the other hand lose its effectiveness in the water column fairly quickly. That is why most ich meds require relatively often water changes & re-dosing. The exception is certain copper based meds, but this is another monster in itself.

Hope this helps.
 
I hadnt thought of the lack of salt having a half life. When you combine that with the benefits of salt I see your point. I was aware that ich stays within the fish after the symptoms go away, but wasn't able to find sources that could reach a consensus on how long to continue treatment. Another perk to the salt temp method would be the lack of stress not just in temp and increased salinity but the exposure over time like you mentioned. Definitely less involvement in the treatment as well.

That was actually pretty helpful, thanks for the input. I'm glad guys like you are around, shows me how much more I can still stand to learn.
 
FYI - The fish are doing a lot better now. 3 of 4 oscars are clean and I am keeping the temp and salinity high for another month or so, just to make sure.
 
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