Solo Angel With The Following?

[From The Depths]

Angels are a single or 4+ group kind of fish. Many people have kept them solo and many people who have tried to keep them solo are disappointed in their personalities. I personally believe angels personalities shine far brighter in groups of four or more, but they can be kept solo with no health issues as a result.

Having said that, I am growing out about 20 1-1.5" Philly blue angels in a 55 all their own. I am going to pick my four favorites and add them to my 125 and pick another 6 and keep them in the 55 with a group of 8 sterbai cories.

I would also remove the idea of the bichirs unless you intend to move them to a larger home. The species of bichir you are talking about can grow to 18" and will be very cramped in that 55. Two of them would take up a massive amount of space on the bottom.

There is nothing wrong with housing bichirs and angels together. It is highly unlikely they will interact at all, much less have aggression issues. So if you want to upgrade the tank to at least a 90 for one bichir or a 125 for two bichirs, you could house the rainbows and some angels. A 90 would hold about 4 of each while a 125 would hold 6 of each.

Now if you don't plan on an upgrade, I would pass on the bichirs. Their size is just too much for that tank and they add a very large amount of waste to the bioload. Instead, I would plan for a school of 8-12 Cory catfish with 4 angels and some schooling tetras of a medium body (like lemon tetras, bleeding hearts, black skirts, etc).


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Thank you for the very detailed answer. I've read angles either do best solo or in groups of 4-6 or more. I'm still debating on weather or not I want one. I has kind of moved passed them but saw a beautiful solid black angle at a LFS that rekendiled my interest in them. Still going to debate as I'm not going to rus into one lol. I really like them and all but still balancing out my stock.


I actually already have one small Senegal bichir and decided to stick with just one instead of two. He/she is about 3.5-4 inches right now. I do plan on upgrading as he grows out, the bigger the tank the better! So far stock plans include the bichir and with 4 rainbow cichlids.

 

[Mythic Figment]

Thank you for the very detailed answer. I've read angles either do best solo or in groups of 4-6 or more. I'm still debating on weather or not I want one. I has kind of moved passed them but saw a beautiful solid black angle at a LFS that rekendiled my interest in them. Still going to debate as I'm not going to rus into one lol. I really like them and all but still balancing out my stock.


I actually already have one small Senegal bichir and decided to stick with just one instead of two. He/she is about 3.5-4 inches right now. I do plan on upgrading as he grows out, the bigger the tank the better! So far stock plans include the bichir and with 4 rainbow cichlids.

The bichir will grow fairly slow, so you are looking at several years before it hits full size. In its first year, you can expect a size of 7-10" depending on water changes and amount fed each day/week.

I would definitely look into a larger tank sooner rather than later, especially if you are getting rainbow cichlids. Be very careful with this combo as the bichir gets older. The rainbow cichlids only reach about 5" (females usually around 4"), but tend to be pretty deep bodied. If those cichlids aren't full grown when the bichir reaches 14"+, they will be lunch. And of course those cichlids make their home on the bottom, so extra space is necessary (especially since 4 could yield a breeding pair, which will need space of their own). And if you end up with a breeding pair who feel the bichir is a threat and they start to attack or harass him, he may retaliate. And an angry bichir that is 3-4 times their size could do some serious damage.

Honestly, if you lost interest in the angels that quickly, you will likely do so again. I have never raised angels solo, but have read a lot of stories about how they can "pair" up with other cichlids and be friends. I have read of them being friends with fish as small as betas to as big as severums. So solo angels can make it and may even pair off with one of your rainbows, but again, I still recommend a group of four or more. Angels will be a bit harder to care for than rainbow cichlids, but still not difficult to keep.

In your situation where few angels appeal to you, I would pass on the angels and go with your original idea of rainbow fish. It would be your "rainbow" tank!


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[From The Depths]

The bichir will grow fairly slow, so you are looking at several years before it hits full size. In its first year, you can expect a size of 7-10" depending on water changes and amount fed each day/week.

I would definitely look into a larger tank sooner rather than later, especially if you are getting rainbow cichlids. Be very careful with this combo as the bichir gets older. The rainbow cichlids only reach about 5" (females usually around 4"), but tend to be pretty deep bodied. If those cichlids aren't full grown when the bichir reaches 14"+, they will be lunch. And of course those cichlids make their home on the bottom, so extra space is necessary (especially since 4 could yield a breeding pair, which will need space of their own). And if you end up with a breeding pair who feel the bichir is a threat and they start to attack or harass him, he may retaliate. And an angry bichir that is 3-4 times their size could do some serious damage.

Honestly, if you lost interest in the angels that quickly, you will likely do so again. I have never raised angels solo, but have read a lot of stories about how they can "pair" up with other cichlids and be friends. I have read of them being friends with fish as small as betas to as big as severums. So solo angels can make it and may even pair off with one of your rainbows, but again, I still recommend a group of four or more. Angels will be a bit harder to care for than rainbow cichlids, but still not difficult to keep.

In your situation where few angels appeal to you, I would pass on the angels and go with your original idea of rainbow fish. It would be your "rainbow" tank!


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I'll be keeping a close eye on the combos in the tank and if anything begins to go south I've got extra tanks I can use to separate. A bigger tank is in the works too. Always looking to upgrade lol.

Its not that I lost interest in them necessarily, just read a lot of conflicting information on them and wasn't sure how well one would work out for me. I've read similar things about how their personality doesn't shine as well solo and I don't think I have the room for a group in the 55 gallon considering my other stock. That's the major reason I kinda turned away. I've also read some info that states they are hardy and other info that states the opposite.

There's a lot of angles that I like, can't say there is a variety that I dislike lol. My boyfriend was never big on the rainbowfish and since its our tank I decided to go for fish we both really like The more he looked at them the less he liked them, not sure why as I think rainbowfish are quite pretty.

 

[Brian Anderson]

birchir/angelfish would, in my opinion, be weird for a 55. 4 angels, cory's and a shoal of your preference would potentially add more

x2


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[Mythic Figment]

I'll be keeping a close eye on the combos in the tank and if anything begins to go south I've got extra tanks I can use to separate. A bigger tank is in the works too. Always looking to upgrade lol.

Its not that I lost interest in them necessarily, just read a lot of conflicting information on them and wasn't sure how well one would work out for me. I've read similar things about how their personality doesn't shine as well solo and I don't think I have the room for a group in the 55 gallon considering my other stock. That's the major reason I kinda turned away. I've also read some info that states they are hardy and other info that states the opposite.

There's a lot of angles that I like, can't say there is a variety that I dislike lol. My boyfriend was never big on the rainbowfish and since its our tank I decided to go for fish we both really like The more he looked at them the less he liked them, not sure why as I think rainbowfish are quite pretty.

Well as an experienced angel keeper, I can tell you there is truth is most posts mixed with a ton of personal opinion. LOL In my experience, angels that are wild tend to be pretty fragile. Even F1-2 generation angels can be sensitive to changes in water conditions and its a quick trip downhill for them. For some reason, angels go from good to dead in no time. I have seen big cichlids like Midas and little cichlids like rams hang on for days before dying, but I have never seen that with angels. One minute they are fine and the next they are floating. Maybe they just hide sickness well. Anyways, once you reach F2-3 generation angels, that sensitivity is much, much lower.

The other key thing is to buy from a quality source with angels. All the big chain pet stores and many mom and pop styles pet stores buy their angels from poor quality distributors or breeders who are not breeding to better the species. Many stores near me don't even carry angels because the quality is so poor that the angels they get in stock are dead within hours of leaving the shipping bag. I bought 20 Philly blue pea sized from a place called AngelfishUSA.com. Great company and very friendly owners. They added 6 extra babies to my bag because it common for fish so small to die during shipping. Well I only lost two angels to shipping. So I had 24 and they were growing out in their little 20 gallon high. I lost 4 more due to a combination of sucking one up into the gravel vac, one choking to death on a baby convict fry that escaped its hatching basket and two for unknown reasons. They grew like weeds and now all 20 are in their 55 and still growing fast.

You could easily keep the bichir, 4 angels and a school of tetra dithers in that 55 without issue for over a year. If you can get the rainbow cichlids at a 2"+ size, you can even keep them in the 55 as well, so long as you upgrade before the end of the year or house them elsewhere temporarily. The general rule for angels is that one full grown adult (about a 6" diameter) will need 10 gallons of space. So a 55 could house up to 6, but would not allow for dithers and could still have a few small bottom dwellers (hence why my 6 will have no dithers and a school of 8 cories).

And I share your boyfriends opinion of rainbow fish. There is something about their shape I don't like. Color variety is nice, but isn't enough to distract me from the shape. LOL


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[From The Depths]

Well as an experienced angel keeper, I can tell you there is truth is most posts mixed with a ton of personal opinion. LOL In my experience, angels that are wild tend to be pretty fragile. Even F1-2 generation angels can be sensitive to changes in water conditions and its a quick trip downhill for them. For some reason, angels go from good to dead in no time. I have seen big cichlids like Midas and little cichlids like rams hang on for days before dying, but I have never seen that with angels. One minute they are fine and the next they are floating. Maybe they just hide sickness well. Anyways, once you reach F2-3 generation angels, that sensitivity is much, much lower.

The other key thing is to buy from a quality source with angels. All the big chain pet stores and many mom and pop styles pet stores buy their angels from poor quality distributors or breeders who are not breeding to better the species. Many stores near me don't even carry angels because the quality is so poor that the angels they get in stock are dead within hours of leaving the shipping bag. I bought 20 Philly blue pea sized from a place called AngelfishUSA.com. Great company and very friendly owners. They added 6 extra babies to my bag because it common for fish so small to die during shipping. Well I only lost two angels to shipping. So I had 24 and they were growing out in their little 20 gallon high. I lost 4 more due to a combination of sucking one up into the gravel vac, one choking to death on a baby convict fry that escaped its hatching basket and two for unknown reasons. They grew like weeds and now all 20 are in their 55 and still growing fast.

You could easily keep the bichir, 4 angels and a school of tetra dithers in that 55 without issue for over a year. If you can get the rainbow cichlids at a 2"+ size, you can even keep them in the 55 as well, so long as you upgrade before the end of the year or house them elsewhere temporarily. The general rule for angels is that one full grown adult (about a 6" diameter) will need 10 gallons of space. So a 55 could house up to 6, but would not allow for dithers and could still have a few small bottom dwellers (hence why my 6 will have no dithers and a school of 8 cories).

And I share your boyfriends opinion of rainbow fish. There is something about their shape I don't like. Color variety is nice, but isn't enough to distract me from the shape. LOL


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Once again thank you for the detailed information. I will have to ask the lady at one of the shops where she gets her angles from. So far she has had really nice fish. I've seen angles in there and they are usually around the size of a 50 cent piece or bigger. I've not known her to have any under quarter size. They look healthy as do her other fish. I've talked to her before and she does get a lot of her fish from local breeders, so will check into that more.

The rainbow cichlids I have are just at or slightly under two inches. I've got four of them and they seem to be doing great. Have already started displaying lovely shades of yellow. The Senegal bichir is around 3.5-4 inches at the moment. I'm thinking the black marble angles would be a nice contrast to the yellow of the rainbow cichlids.

I think the shape of the rainbowfish also throws off my boyfriend lol. He says they are ok but just doesn't really like them.

 

[Mythic Figment]

Once again thank you for the detailed information. I will have to ask the lady at one of the shops where she gets her angles from. So far she has had really nice fish. I've seen angles in there and they are usually around the size of a 50 cent piece or bigger. I've not known her to have any under quarter size. They look healthy as do her other fish. I've talked to her before and she does get a lot of her fish from local breeders, so will check into that more.

The rainbow cichlids I have are just at or slightly under two inches. I've got four of them and they seem to be doing great. Have already started displaying lovely shades of yellow. The Senegal bichir is around 3.5-4 inches at the moment. I'm thinking the black marble angles would be a nice contrast to the yellow of the rainbow cichlids.

I think the shape of the rainbowfish also throws off my boyfriend lol. He says they are ok but just doesn't really like them.

Local is almost always better. The water they are use for their fish is going to be the same water you use for water changes, so they won't experience stress from a change in water quality. And locally bred fish are even better because its the only water they have ever known.

The sizes of your fish sound great. Should easily be able to pull that off for a while before needing to upgrade. But of course you should keep an eye on aggression just in case someone in the tank is a little too ornery.


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[From The Depths]

Local is almost always better. The water they are use for their fish is going to be the same water you use for water changes, so they won't experience stress from a change in water quality. And locally bred fish are even better because its the only water they have ever known.

The sizes of your fish sound great. Should easily be able to pull that off for a while before needing to upgrade. But of course you should keep an eye on aggression just in case someone in the tank is a little too ornery.


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I'm pretty sure the angles she gets are locally bred but I'm going to double check I've heard locally bred fish would be better for the exact reasons you've mentioned. Within a year I plan to upgrade the tank and I've got extra if any of the fish get too feisty with each other lol. Thanks so much for all the information and help!

 

[Mythic Figment]

I'm pretty sure the angles she gets are locally bred but I'm going to double check I've heard locally bred fish would be better for the exact reasons you've mentioned. Within a year I plan to upgrade the tank and I've got extra if any of the fish get too feisty with each other lol. Thanks so much for all the information and help!

No problem. Happy to help. Good luck with your tank and don't forget to post pics!


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