some sort of Texas M or F?

[Aquamojo]

The fish is Hericthys carpinte. One of the best ways you can tell is by the size of the spots and the way they are situated on the body. Cyanagutattus "pearling" is much smaller and evenly sized. They also more or less are evenly lined along the body. Carpinte have unevenly sized pearling and less evenly distributed.

Here's a H. cyanaguttatus:

This is H. carpinte "Rio Salto"

Regarding sex...the female species of this family will generally have a noticeable black blotch in the dorsal fin. It's difficult to sex the fish at the size in the photo.

 

[the animal guy]

its a captive bred carpinte. Possibly a mix of the cyano and carpinte.. But for sure not a Cyano

 

[Aquamojo]

its a captive bred carpinte. Possibly a mix of the cyano and carpinte.. But for sure not a Cyano

How do you know that it's a "captive bred" carpinte? And what would indicate to you that it's a "mix" of the two? I'm just curious what supports your comments.

 

[Sarkis]

The fish is Hericthys carpinte. One of the best ways you can tell is by the size of the spots and the way they are situated on the body. Cyanagutattus "pearling" is much smaller and evenly sized. They also more or less are evenly lined along the body. Carpinte have unevenly sized pearling and less evenly distributed.

Here's a H. cyanaguttatus:

This is H. carpinte "Rio Salto"

Regarding sex...the female species of this family will generally have a noticeable black blotch in the dorsal fin. It's difficult to sex the fish at the size in the photo.

Thanks for all the replys everyone.

Exactly what i was looking for aquamojo. Is the pic you have up of a carpinte a male or female. And another question, do males tend to get dark with black lines towards there back half of there bodies when bothered or defending territory. i have three right now growing out and one is tending to show different characteristics then the others.

 

[FishingOut]

I think your partially right Mojo, If you can find a picture of a True Cyano with an octagon pearl than I could agree with you. But having owned both cyanos and carpintis in the past I will safely say its a hybrid between the two. Much like the RD/Midas. The spot pattern has a bit of both sides. Also they seem kind of long since Cyanos are high-bodied, granted they are still young.

Also the Rio Salto is a much rarer variety of the Carpintis and Im going to say its much rarer to but unknowingly cross by unsuspecting hobbiests. Rio Saltos arent being sold at average LFS's.

 

[Aquamojo]

I think your partially right Mojo, If you can find a picture of a True Cyano with an octagon pearl than I could agree with you. But having owned both cyanos and carpintis in the past I will safely say its a hybrid between the two. Much like the RD/Midas. The spot pattern has a bit of both sides. Also they seem kind of long since Cyanos are high-bodied, granted they are still young.

Also the Rio Salto is a much rarer variety of the Carpintis and Im going to say its much rarer to but unknowingly cross by unsuspecting hobbiests. Rio Saltos arent being sold at average LFS's.

I don't know what you mean by an "octagon pearl" or how that is relevant to defining the species. At the size shown here, it's impossible to tell if it is a hybrid. I don't know what you mean by "The spot pattern has a bit of both sides."

The fish shown here is a Rio Salto...and is difficult to find in the hobby. In fact, the person who discovered them, Juan Miquel, pointed out that they are different than most other Carpinte in that the body tapers from the top and toward the caudal fin...with the caudal peduncle being more elongate.

Variation of the Carpinte collected from different locales will yield more interesting spot patterns and color. Carpinte from Lake Chariel are know for having a bit of red in the body. Escondido mor vibrant green pearls. Fish from the Panuco basin are constantly evolving and eventually splitting into it's own species as will likely the Rio Salto at some point.

I've kept several dozen of these fish over the last thirty years. Looking at the photo, I can see that it's Hericthys...I can see the Carpinte...but there's nothing that indicates Cyanaguttatus. As for the latter being more high bodied....here's a shot of my Escondido. If this isn't high bodied...

 

[FishingOut]

I don't know what you mean by an "octagon pearl" or how that is relevant to defining the species. At the size shown here, it's impossible to tell if it is a hybrid. I don't know what you mean by "The spot pattern has a bit of both sides."

The fish shown here is a Rio Salto...and is difficult to find in the hobby. In fact, the person who discovered them, Juan Miquel, pointed out that they are different than most other Carpinte in that the body tapers from the top and toward the caudal fin...with the caudal peduncle being more elongate.

Variation of the Carpinte collected from different locales will yield more interesting spot patterns and color. Carpinte from Lake Chariel are know for having a bit of red in the body. Escondido mor vibrant green pearls. Fish from the Panuco basin are constantly evolving and eventually splitting into it's own species as will likely the Rio Salto at some point.

I've kept several dozen of these fish over the last thirty years. Looking at the photo, I can see that it's Hericthys...I can see the Carpinte...but there's nothing that indicates Cyanaguttatus. As for the latter being more high bodied....here's a shot of my Escondido. If this isn't high bodied...

My bad mojo, I misread your post. I thought you said it was Cyano, and I clearly misread. By octagonal patterning I mean, If the fish sports a honeycomb like pattern, its Carpintis.
The reason I called hybrid was due do the lack Blochs on the back end and the jaw structure. Ive noticed in my experience with different Texas types the lower jaw structor is bigger with carpintis on younger fish. I know this isnt a deciding factor as well, But a lot of the times Cyano's will have a white or light yellow eye, while Carpintis tend to be more orangey.
To call hybrid this early is purely a guess, I was just going off with what you stated because I know you have plenty of exp. with Herichthys. In regards to the high bodied statement, Cyanos seem to develop at a younger age while Carpintis seems to grow in length befor growing high. Just an observation Ive made with the Texas's Ive had and seen. Im certainly not qualified to write a book on the subject.
Very nice specimen as well, Most wont be that high-bodied.

 

[Aquamojo]

My bad mojo, I misread your post. I thought you said it was Cyano, and I clearly misread. By octagonal patterning I mean, If the fish sports a honeycomb like pattern, its Carpintis.
The reason I called hybrid was due do the lack Blochs on the back end and the jaw structure. Ive noticed in my experience with different Texas types the lower jaw structor is bigger with carpintis on younger fish. I know this isnt a deciding factor as well, But a lot of the times Cyano's will have a white or light yellow eye, while Carpintis tend to be more orangey.
To call hybrid this early is purely a guess, I was just going off with what you stated because I know you have plenty of exp. with Herichthys. In regards to the high bodied statement, Cyanos seem to develop at a younger age while Carpintis seems to grow in length befor growing high. Just an observation Ive made with the Texas's Ive had and seen. Im certainly not qualified to write a book on the subject.
Very nice specimen as well, Most wont be that high-bodied.

Interesting. I looked in Miller's book, the Freshwater Fish of Mexico and the only thing I could find is that the "species is very close to H. Cyan., differing in life colors and body shape." The diagram of both fish makes it look pretty obvious...but with all of the variants...who the hell knows. It did also state that "the two species may hybridize in the middle reaches of Rio Soto la Marina." So maybe there's the start of the "variants"

For what it's worth the Cyan. is generally found more inland and not in lowland or tide influenced areas. the book also points out that "the species varies greatly across its range in color and morphology"...which I believe is scientific talk for "good luck".

Thanks for the reply.

Mo