Some thoughts on antibiotics after treating a nasty disease.

[lipadj46]

Sorry for the long post but I thought some may benefit from my experiences. Mods feel free to move this to the disease forum.

I had an unknown disease blow through my 55 gallon planted community tank. All these fish were in the tank for at least 1 month and some for a year so it was not a matter of QTing, though in the future I am going to be more strict with the QT process. The first fish to go were my kuhli loaches, I lost 15 of them over night. They had no signs of illness besides a bit of a cloudy coating on some. I raised the temp to 86 but did not add any medicine due to the dojo loaches sensitivity. After that all hell broke loose the next night I lost 4 neon tetras and 4 zebra danios. Now I could see some velvelty looking stuff on the tetras and danios but nothing on the other fish. I also noticed my dojo loaches eyes were cloudy and bulging. Bodies were also bulging on the affected fish, at this point so I'm not sure what the disease is.

I ordered maracyn 1 and 2 from the internet and QT'd the neons, zebras and dojos in a cycled betta tank (10 gallon, betta was actually quite friendly) and added a half dose of quick cure. The next couple days there were no improvements but no deaths. Then on the day I got the antibiotics one of my L183 plecs (a favorite and a bit expensive) died.

At this point I aggressively treated both the 55 and the 10 gallon QT tank with Maracyn 1 and 2 for an entire week as per the directions. After day 2 I noticed the fish starting to get more active, eyes cleared up and they started to eat again. Phew. I was worried the antibiotics would kill my beneficial bacteria and throw my tank back into a cycle but it never happened. I tested for ammonia every morning and night and there was none.

So long story short I was always wary of antibiotics because I thought they killed BB (yes some do like maracyn plus so read the instructions first). I ordered some more maracyn 1 and 2 and maracyn plus now so I have it and can now confidently treat a disease earlier to avoid losing so many fish.

 

[mshill90]

Any antibiotic that you use is going to kill some of your BB. It may not kill all, but it will kill some.

But from the sounds of it, you had columnaris, which is a fungus, and then your tank ended up kicking you in the you know what with a bacterial infection.

Maracyn or binox would have done the job.

But there has to be a reason this happened. This just doesn't happen for no reason.

What are your parameters, water temp, water change schedule?

 

[lipadj46]

Any antibiotic that you use is going to kill some of your BB. It may not kill all, but it will kill some.

But from the sounds of it, you had columnaris, which is a fungus, and then your tank ended up kicking you in the you know what with a bacterial infection.

Maracyn or binox would have done the job.

But there has to be a reason this happened. This just doesn't happen for no reason.

What are your parameters, water temp, water change schedule?

82F, 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, 5ppm nitrates (from dosing ferts), pH=6, dKH=2, dGH=2. As far as water changes go I do about 20% daily and 50% weekly water changes (fighting some BBA that has subsided). I also inject CO2 and dose EI. The tank is essentially a jungle at this point with lots of driftwood. The plants obviously will help with any ammonia too.

 

[mshill90]

I do not understand what you mean by you do 20% daily, and 50% weekly..

Essentially when they say they do something weekly, they either only do 1 change of that much a week, or their water changes equal that a week. But that doesn't add up if you do 20% daily.

When was the last time a plant or fish has been added? what was it? And where was it purchased?

 

[lipadj46]

I have a 55 gallon, everyday after work I do a quick 10 gallon water change (essentially to vacuum the pleco poop) and then once a week I do a 50% water change to reset my fertilizers. The last fish added were 3 captive breed L183 plecos from a trusted hobbiest, that was about a month ago. There were some rescued walmart zebra danios (they were going to flush them during a store remodel) but that was 6 weeks ago. They are my suspects.

Besides Maracyn, maracyn 2 and quick cure (formalin and malachite green) what other meds should one have on hand?

 

[mshill90]

Here is what I keep on hand: (note, I have koi, rays, cichlids, plecos, bichirs, and tons of other fish)

Solar Salt... I always have at least 2 large bags on hand.
Epsom Salt
Frozen Peas
Binox (aka oxytetracycline, bifuran, furan 2)
Quick Cure
Medicated Jungle Food
Medicated Kens Food
Metro+
Prazi
Oxolinic Acid (not for beginners)
Potassium Permanganate (not for beginners)

 

[aclockworkorange]

When you bumped UP the heat, you likely made it worse. Bacterial infections generally get much worse at higher temps, especially columnaris, which I agree it sounds like is what you had. That's why I always tell people the "crank heat add salt" thing for treating all diseases is BS.

That's a decent list of meds mshill but I prefer to go with something like kanamyacin or sulfa based antibiotics for basic bacterial infections. Also, no methylene blue?

 

[lipadj46]

When you bumped UP the heat, you likely made it worse. Bacterial infections generally get much worse at higher temps, especially columnaris, which I agree it sounds like is what you had. That's why I always tell people the "crank heat add salt" thing for treating all diseases is BS.

yep I did not mention it but things got worse when the temp was raised. I did turn it back down when the fish started to react negatively.

 

[calioutlaw1a]

I had an unknown disease blow through my 55 gallon planted community tank. All these fish were in the tank for at least 1 month and some for a year so it was not a matter of QTing, though in the future I am going to be more strict with the QT process. The first fish to go were my kuhli loaches, I lost 15 of them over night. They had no signs of illness besides a bit of a cloudy coating on some. I raised the temp to 86 but did not add any medicine due to the dojo loaches sensitivity. After that all hell broke loose the next night I lost 4 neon tetras and 4 zebra danios. Now I could see some velvelty looking stuff on the tetras and danios but nothing on the other fish. I also noticed my dojo loaches eyes were cloudy and bulging. Bodies were also bulging on the affected fish, at this point so I'm not sure what the disease is.

I ordered maracyn 1 and 2 from the internet and QT'd the neons, zebras and dojos in a cycled betta tank (10 gallon, betta was actually quite friendly) and added a half dose of quick cure. The next couple days there were no improvements but no deaths. Then on the day I got the antibiotics one of my L183 plecs (a favorite and a bit expensive) died.

At this point I aggressively treated both the 55 and the 10 gallon QT tank with Maracyn 1 and 2 for an entire week as per the directions. After day 2 I noticed the fish starting to get more active, eyes cleared up and they started to eat again. Phew. I was worried the antibiotics would kill my beneficial bacteria and throw my tank back into a cycle but it never happened. I tested for ammonia every morning and night and there was none.

So long story short I was always wary of antibiotics because I thought they killed BB (yes some do like maracyn plus so read the instructions first). I ordered some more maracyn 1 and 2 and maracyn plus now so I have it and can now confidently treat a disease earlier to avoid losing so many fish.

It sounds like a systemic bacterial infection, perhaps with more than one type of bacteria. The fluffy covering on them sounds like columnaris. Can you further describe this? Did it cover the body, or was it just in a certain spot? The classic appearance of columnaris is a "saddle patch" like this platty:

Glad to hear you got it under control.
As far as who is to blame for this, it's really difficult to say. For so many different species to be effected to rapidly it sounds like some stressful event triggered this. You seem to maintain your tank pretty well, and water parameters are good. What diet do you feed? Can you think of anything out of the ordinary that happened around that time?

But from the sounds of it, you had columnaris, which is a fungus, and then your tank ended up kicking you in the you know what with a bacterial infection.

Columnaris is caused by flavobacterium columnare, a gram negative bacterium.

That's a decent list of meds mshill but I prefer to go with something like kanamyacin or sulfa based antibiotics for basic bacterial infections. Also, no methylene blue?

I would advise against using kanamycin for the basic bacterial infection for several reasons:
1. Kanamycin is bacteriocidal rather than bacteriostatic, meaning that it actually kills bacteria rather than just inhibiting growth like, for example, sulfa drugs. For the basic bacterial infection in a fish with a competent immune system it's better to use a drug that will prevent the bacteria from multiplying while allowing the fish's immune system to clean up the bacteria that are present.

2. Using a bacteriocidal drug like kanamycin will increase the chances of adversely effecting your biofilter (which are also gram negative aerobic bacteria, just like columnaris).

3. Kanamycin has some bad side effects, primarily on the kidneys, and this toxicity is likely increased at more acidic pHs (for example, in a rat model there was 90% inhibition of a key kidney enzyme at pH 6-7 resulting in severe toxicity). This is why it should not be used more than a couple treatments, and the treatments should be spread out.

I save kanamycin for more severe bacterial infections.

 

[aclockworkorange]

By "basic" bacterial infections, I meant bacterial infections where you know the cause (such as columnaris) and there are no other compounding diseases, not the severity of the infection (I agree kanamyacin can be harsh, please link to your quoted studies on it though). Sometimes you don't even know exactly what you're treating for, and have to cover additional bases.

Also, gram negative or positive is important, sorry typing on an iphone is a PITA.