Speaking of TSN runts, dinks, and Co...
- Thread starter thebiggerthebetter
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wednesday13
Hi Russ, do you know or have you heard anything about corruscans temp requirements? It has been suggested that perhaps our corruscans hasn't fed for 5-6 months now due to warmer water (see below). I wanted to ask Darren Palfrey aka Dazzapolypterusweeksii but he is not on the MFK anymore. He has had a corruscans for many years.
Exchange with KLT on YT:
KuhliLoachTrainer This reminds me of what happened with Twig the firewood catfish's fast from November to January, except I am not nearly as optimistic. Do you think temperature might have to do with it? I am thinking back to our June 21 2024 discussions about temperature, maybe the tropical climate of Naples is proving to be a long term detriment to Widmer just like it was to the white sturgeon…. Other than that, I don't really know what to say, this is a risky and undesirable situation. At least Widmer isn't visibly dying!
Fish-Story.. I think the corruscans natural range is wide enough to include tropics or at least subtropics, no? I'd have to look up their temp requirements. Off the top of my head, I doubt temp, although it'd be a good explanation. Well, Widmer has been now in the 80F water versus 86F. So far no natural appetite comeback. No, he is not sick visibly at all. Just an absolute zero appetite. I am hoping simply internal parasites. If he doesn't start to feed so I could give him meds through feed, I'll have to inject or forcefeed. Baths are not as efficient, especially for the poorly water-soluble praziquantel.
KuhliLoachTrainer As far as temperature requirements and range go, Wikipedia says the natural range of this species of surubi is the Sao Francisco and Parana-Paraguay rivers. Assuming climate data from cities can be used to get an idea of water temperature across the year, only the cities near the headwaters - the northernmost and warmest parts - of those rivers are on par with Naples…………… Corumba (near the headwaters of the Paraguay River), Uberlandia (near the headwaters of the Sao Francisco River) and Santa Fe do Sul (near the headwaters of the Parana River) are all tropical climates like Naples, and they have annual average temperatures in the 22-26C range which overlaps Naples' 24C annual average, so if Widmer came from the parts of the rivers around those cities, I would assume he would be fine temperature wise in Naples…………… But given that far more of the range of those rivers is further to the south, which consists of subtropical climates with considerably colder annual means than Naples, it's more likely that he comes from one of those parts. For instance, Corrientes which is close to the halfway point between the Parana's headwaters and its mouth has an annual mean 3C colder than Naples, and Buenos Aires which is near the Parana's mouth has an annual mean 3C colder than Naples. For a close-to-home-analogy, this the equivalent of the differences in the annual means between Naples and Gainesville in North Central Florida (3C) colder and Wilmington in Southeastern North Carolina (6C colder)………….. Also note that subtropical and tropical are not equivalent terms: just because the range of a fish goes into the subtropics doesn't mean it can handle the tropics. Subtropical fish have been known to tolerate year round heat very badly as
duanes
has learned by way of keeping Gymnogeophagus species from similar South American locations to P. corruscans at tropical temperatures and having them fungus up and die. You can ask them about this if you'd like more information. Hope this helps…………………. I did see that suggestion from Hukit and yes, I too think that doing what they did will be appreciably more effective than a bath. Because of the huge mouth of surubi it will surely be easier than with a smaller mouthed fish to force feed medicine or medicated food
Fish-Story Thank you so much for this homework! It surely strengthens your case for the temperature factor………………… One thing that can be added is that the air and water temps may or may not be in direct correlation. The mid and bottom waters of glacier fed rivers, like the Amazon, remain cold for great distances of hundreds of miles, if not a 1000 miles in the Amazon case. IDK if the rivers you mention are glacier or melting snow fed……………. I assumed the main difference between a fish from subtropics vs tropics was that they could handle cold snaps and the cooling of the water to 50-60F, which could not be said of the tropical fish. IDK if the subtropical fish need the cool off to remain in good health and condition. I'd assume they do not. IDK also if generalization is fair here. It may or may not be………………………………. "Also note that subtropical and tropical are not equivalent terms: just because the range of a fish goes into the subtropics doesn't mean it can handle the tropics. Subtropical fish have been known to tolerate year round heat very badly as Duanes has learned by way of keeping Gymnogeophagus species from similar South American locations to P. corruscans at tropical temperatures and having them fungus up and die. You can ask them about this if you'd like more information. Hope this helps."……………….. ***Yes, it's a great piece of intel!!! It argues against my thoughts on a factual basis, although it is a single fact. Still this is very valuable……………………….. All in all, I'd say that you are very well may be unto something here! Because Widmer showed no big problems like this with the feeding before. Why the sudden and long fast? And you point out it is coinciding with the warmest water temp. Maybe you've cracked it for me/us all!.................................... I am happy Widmer is now (accidentally) in the 6F-7F cooler water at 80F. Maybe I should leave him alone until the water begins to cool down in October and see if he begins feeding on his own and proves your hypothesis. I could even place him in the 25K because it is the same cooler temp but don't want to yank him around like that too often, given what can happen to big fish simply moving tanks.
Fish-Story One thing that doesn't quite align with the temperature hypothesis is that Widmer was moved to the 4500g in the beginning of March and still had couple cooler months to adjust and start feeding, which he didn't do. This could be have been due to his general finicky nature though, which was then in a cou0ple of months exacerbated by the temp per your explanation.………………………. I need to consult with other corruscans owners on what temperature dependence they have seen if any.
1. From Planet Catfish and FishBase corruscans appears to have a slighly lower temp range of 72-79F.
2. AI: The native temperature range for the Pseudoplatystoma corruscans, also known as the spotted sorubim, is 22.0–26.0°C (71.6–78.8°F). The spotted sorubim is native to river basins in South America, including the São Francisco and Paraná-Paraguay rivers. It is a migratory catfish found in fast-flowing rivers as well as floodplains. The fish prefer soft, slightly acidic, or neutral water conditions.
3. Practical FishKeeping: average temp 25C.
4. Josh of the OFR: corruscans are finicky in their experience. The usual hunger strike is 3 months. Josh recommends forcefeeding our fish since it hasn't fed in 6 months. He thinks corruscans temp requirements are no different from other TSN and Amazonian fish in general.
5. From this well known chart, the native range is definitely cooler than Amazon on average but about half of the range doesn't look too different:
2. AI: The native temperature range for the Pseudoplatystoma corruscans, also known as the spotted sorubim, is 22.0–26.0°C (71.6–78.8°F). The spotted sorubim is native to river basins in South America, including the São Francisco and Paraná-Paraguay rivers. It is a migratory catfish found in fast-flowing rivers as well as floodplains. The fish prefer soft, slightly acidic, or neutral water conditions.
3. Practical FishKeeping: average temp 25C.
4. Josh of the OFR: corruscans are finicky in their experience. The usual hunger strike is 3 months. Josh recommends forcefeeding our fish since it hasn't fed in 6 months. He thinks corruscans temp requirements are no different from other TSN and Amazonian fish in general.
5. From this well known chart, the native range is definitely cooler than Amazon on average but about half of the range doesn't look too different:
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KuhliLoachTrainer Yes, I know about glacier and snowmelt fed rivers being much colder than the air temperature: in fact I think it's a really fascinating topic so thanks for bringing it up One such example is the Solimoes: even as far from its source as Manaus at the Meeting of the Waters the Andes glaciers/snowmelt are powerful enough chillers to keep it at 22C which is 5C colder than the annual mean of Manaus…………….. Another noteworthy demonstration of glacier/snowmelt chilling effect is the Rio Magdalena: the impression Duanes got when they swam in the mouth of the river (the northernmost, warmest part draining into the tropical Caribbean) is that the water was about 21C, which is 7C colder than the annual mean of Barranquilla at the river mouth. If it's that cold at its mouth, my guess is that closer to its source, at say Barracabermeja, it would be in the teens C……………………….. I don't think any of the 3 rivers we were talking about are glacier fed, though: none of the information I could find suggested such. But if they were, that would of course strengthen the diagnosis even more……………………………….. As far as generalizations go, I think studies need to be done on this, but I think many subtropical fish needing the cool off isn't unreasonable to assume if Duanes' experience is to go by, they have repeatedly and explicitly stated that's what their Gymnogeophagus have done better with. Another thing to consider is what they said about them fungusing up if kept too warm for too long: they have mentioned that bacteria and fungi do better at higher temperatures and this may be directly correlated with the fungusing up of the Gymnogeophagus that don't get a cooldown. Not only would stress from too warm water weaken their immunity, but fungi and bacteria do better in warmer temperatures from what they have tested as a microbiologist, so the infections are especially bad with no cool down………………………… The rest of your comment sounds like a plan. Only thing I'd add is, maybe try a chiller to get the water down to 19-23C or so and see what happens? 27C still might be a bit high at this point.
Fish Story: “One thing that doesn't quite align with the temperature hypothesis is that Widmer was moved to the 4500g in the beginning of March and still had couple cooler months to adjust and start feeding, which he didn't do.”
KuhliLoachTrainer I think it actually does, because the cooler months were not really cooldowns at all compared to their Argentinian equivalents. January this year in Naples was colder than average but was 2C warmer than July in Corrientes and 5C warmer than July in Buenos Aires, while February and March were around 21-22C and so also considerably warmer than their equivalent August/June in Buenos Aires or March/November in Corrientes. Then April and May this year were similar to the warmest months in Buenos Aires and Corrientes, which is to say nothing of the even warmer June, July, and August. So even in the cooler months the water was still considerably warmer than it would have been in the coolest parts of the year in the Argentinian cities, together with the faster warmup.
One such example is the Solimoes: even as far from its source as Manaus at the Meeting of the Waters the Andes glaciers/snowmelt are powerful enough chillers to keep it at 22C which is 5C colder than the annual mean of Manaus…………….. Another noteworthy demonstration of glacier/snowmelt chilling effect is the Rio Magdalena: the impression Duanes got when they swam in the mouth of the river (the northernmost, warmest part draining into the tropical Caribbean) is that the water was about 21C, which is 7C colder than the annual mean of Barranquilla at the river mouth. If it's that cold at its mouth, my guess is that closer to its source, at say Barracabermeja, it would be in the teens C……………………….. I don't think any of the 3 rivers we were talking about are glacier fed, though: none of the information I could find suggested such. But if they were, that would of course strengthen the diagnosis even more……………………………….. As far as generalizations go, I think studies need to be done on this, but I think many subtropical fish needing the cool off isn't unreasonable to assume if Duanes' experience is to go by, they have repeatedly and explicitly stated that's what their Gymnogeophagus have done better with. Another thing to consider is what they said about them fungusing up if kept too warm for too long: they have mentioned that bacteria and fungi do better at higher temperatures and this may be directly correlated with the fungusing up of the Gymnogeophagus that don't get a cooldown. Not only would stress from too warm water weaken their immunity, but fungi and bacteria do better in warmer temperatures from what they have tested as a microbiologist, so the infections are especially bad with no cool down………………………… The rest of your comment sounds like a plan. Only thing I'd add is, maybe try a chiller to get the water down to 19-23C or so and see what happens? 27C still might be a bit high at this point.Fish Story: “One thing that doesn't quite align with the temperature hypothesis is that Widmer was moved to the 4500g in the beginning of March and still had couple cooler months to adjust and start feeding, which he didn't do.”
KuhliLoachTrainer I think it actually does, because the cooler months were not really cooldowns at all compared to their Argentinian equivalents. January this year in Naples was colder than average but was 2C warmer than July in Corrientes and 5C warmer than July in Buenos Aires, while February and March were around 21-22C and so also considerably warmer than their equivalent August/June in Buenos Aires or March/November in Corrientes. Then April and May this year were similar to the warmest months in Buenos Aires and Corrientes, which is to say nothing of the even warmer June, July, and August. So even in the cooler months the water was still considerably warmer than it would have been in the coolest parts of the year in the Argentinian cities, together with the faster warmup.
thebiggerthebetter
These guys are from Argentina as KuhiliLoachTrainer also mentions. A comparable fish for the location would b Caribe piranha and also dorado which are also known to “withstand” cooler average temps. Ur dorado do just fine in ur location. I still wouldnt b certain this guy is actually wild caught tho so its 50/50 for the cool temperature debate. “Pintado” aka p. Corruscans is the most commonly aquacultured species of TSN… right up there with p. Fasciatum for their fast growth and quick yield for meat. Theres quite a few keepers who have large size albino/leucistic corruscans in “community” style tanks with stingrays in brazil so id say an average “tropical” temp is fine for them.
IME catfish become spoiled and quite often refuse food for months when u mess with their regular schedule. Ive had RTC hunger strike for 2-3 months when moved across the room just the same.
Ive been following ur vids closely and have been hoping this guy came around and started eating again. IME its best to just leave them be and stop messing with them. Every time u move them or mess with their regular schedule ur just re starting the clock for them being annoyed/scared/bothered and not feeling comfortable enough to eat.
Many moons ago we had this same debate about ur wels catfish. We were worried ur florida temps were too hot for him. Thats on a much steeper curve also. Winter temps of freezing compared to maybe 68 degree winters for argentina.
Eventually ur glanis “acclimated” just fine. Even being in florida ur still having seasons of temp fluctuations just like u would anywhere else. Were right on the cusp of “fall” so id wager ur guy starts feeding again soon here with the coming temp drop. I wouldnt pull him out for injections or move him again until spring. As always, stress is worse than anything else, even high temps. If i can remember correctly this guy has given u hunger strikes before like when u got him and again when u moved it into the 1800. Just gotta ride it out and b patient which i know very well isnt easy with fish u care for and like alot… we often break before the fish do. Keep offering food. Removing uneaten and repeat… he will break eventually.
fingers crossed for u my friend.