Strain and Location do not go hand in hand

[neutrino]

"Strain" doesn't mean much without qualification or context. For example, there can be geographic strains (same fish, same species, with varying degrees of difference between geographic populations) or breeding strains, the fish produced by a particular breeder based on their parent stock or the breeder's particular selection of overall quality (or lack of) or whatever characteristics the breeder is favoring, whether finnage, color, etc. So "strain" isn't really a term that precisely defines something in itself, unless there's a qualifier such as "geographic strain" or at least a context that's understood.

For example, if the country got 50 locations to catch fish, it does NOT mean there are 50 different variants of genus..

true or false?

It depends. It might or it might not. The reality is complex and there's no across the board rule, since this varies by genus and/or species. It's not simply a question of geographic distance or geographic barriers or isolation. Some species can be genetically and/or morphologically homogeneous throughout the same geographic range in which another species is genetically and/or morpholigically diverse. It's also not always true that more time equals more diversity. This too varies with the genus or species.

Also, morphological variation doesn't always equate to genetic variation. Some species that look very much the same over a geographic range can be genetically more diverse than other fish that look different over the same geographic range.

If you do some research, an interesting point is that, even with all the natural diversity and propensity for species radiation, some cichlid families, geophagines or haplocrhomines, for example, are basically very similar now to what they were tens of millions of years ago. They haven't necessarily changed much over millions of years. There were "species flocks" millions of years ago similar to the species flocks today. In some cases, Lake Malawi, for example, scientists believe the same basic radiations and consolidations of species have been repeated multiple times with the same forms appearing repeatedly during geologic cycles.

When I get more time I can give you several science journal references if you're interested...

 

[dogofwar]

Yes - good points, Duane.

I wonder how long, though, the differentiation of, for example, H. minkleyi would hold in captivity. The adults would, of course, maintain some characteristics (some would perhaps atrophy with a captive diet), but would offspring? Who knows. I've seen H. minkleyi on lists and wondered from which form they are (or originated).

There are several (named) H. carpintis in the market originally from the same general area (lagoons/ponds outside of Veracruz, MX). Are they the same or different (in anything but name)? If the water flows among them, they're the same in my book.

So how could one type have (seemingly) different coloration or other characteristics than others? In a nutshell, from both the initial selection of individuals (from the wild) for aquarium breeding and by selection of individuals for line breeding. All fish in a population don't look the same. Initially choose the really red one (or the ones with interesting face squiggles) and all of the fish in the hobby (descendants of that pair or couple of pairs) will hold those unusual characteristics (or at least have the possibility of them).

I think that some of the confusion comes from the collision of taxonomy (a classification system) with the diversity and variability of life and the aquarium hobby / marketplace. They're not necessarily aligned

Matt

Strain may also be affected by availability of food sources.
There is a molluscivores strain of Herichthys minkleyi with strong crushing jaws, that seems to become most populous during high snail populations, but the detritivore strain with average dentition, is normally most common.
There are also seem to be 2 "strains" of beani available, they are from 2 different river systems, and have different color variation and intensities. This may be due to one system having a different color algae used as a staple food source by the beani.

I also agree that sometimes marketing by collectors or vendors comes into play, and to tell you the truth, I cannot see the difference between my carpintus "chairel" and many "escondido" I have seen.

 

[the animal guy]

Correct, although I think you mean to say "variants of a species" because variants of a Genus would be (potentially) different species.

Yes I actually did mean specie instead of genus. I just barely started using those words 2 and got them twisted.. I always say "fish breed".

but yeah U right. I meant Specie variants.

 

[the animal guy]

Strain may also be affected by availability of food sources.
There is a molluscivores strain of Herichthys minkleyi with strong crushing jaws, that seems to become most populous during high snail populations, but the detritivore strain with average dentition, is normally most common.
There are also seem to be 2 "strains" of beani available, they are from 2 different river systems, and have different color variation and intensities. This may be due to one system having a different color algae used as a staple food source by the beani.

I also agree that sometimes marketing by collectors or vendors comes into play, and to tell you the truth, I cannot see the difference between my carpintus "chairel" and many "escondido" I have seen.

Im gonna spit the real truth to you right here. If you dont like it then it's on you to suffer.

If you got your Escondidos from Wetspot, then that's the reason why. They arent true solid Escondido's Maybe one parent was. Im not sure which Escondido of your's you are talking about but yeah. I wanted escondido but had to refuse those. In this Genus Escondidos do really stand out.

And remember the Peru vs Ecuador Festae days? And Gorilus black and blue days? Guys trying to make it seem like they are totally different fish?haha

 

[Freshwaterpredators]

Im gonna spit the real truth to you right here. If you dont like it then it's on you to suffer.

If you got your Escondidos from Wetspot, then that's the reason why. They arent true solid Escondido's Maybe one parent was. Im not sure which Escondido of your's you are talking about but yeah. I wanted escondido but had to refuse those. In this Genus Escondidos do really stand out.

And remember the Peru vs Ecuador Festae days? And Gorilus black and blue days? Guys trying to make it seem like they are totally different fish?haha

^^^ what truth?? I see no truth or a point to this comment. Sound more like you trolling on Festae and umbees lol. If you read what Matt said then it might begin to make sense to you. Most people that ask questions usually give feedback on others advise. But once again by allowing all the sound advice on this thread to go over your head, it proves all you really wanted to discuss was a troll you been on for some time now when you finish with Festae and Umbees.


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[BuffaloPolypteridae]

Endlicheri bichirs are a great example of this, black Volta endlis turn out darker, Milo endli have quite a different tone then most endli, and the markings themselves differ from river to river. I could see 2 distinct variants happening on one river, if it has a feature that blocks fish from getting to another section like really intense rapids or waterfalls then they may look distinct enough to classify them as different variants.

That was a really random assumption on your part animal towards duanes post, he's brought up some great points in differing populations having differing characteristics based on diet and environment that I don't think anyone could of explained better

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[DREWSMITH]

Great thread. Awesome read.

Drew

 

[trace]

^^^ what truth?? I see no truth or a point to this comment. Sound more like you trolling on Festae and umbees lol. If you read what Matt said then it might begin to make sense to you. Most people that ask questions usually give feedback on others advise. But once again by allowing all the sound advice on this thread to go over your head, it proves all you really wanted to discuss was a troll you been on for some time now when you finish with Festae and Umbees.


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And as always he baited you out if that were the case. You two really need to quit trolling each other you are going to get yet another useful thread with good content get locked.


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[trace]

^^^ what truth?? I see no truth or a point to this comment. Sound more like you trolling on Festae and umbees lol. If you read what Matt said then it might begin to make sense to you. Most people that ask questions usually give feedback on others advise. But once again by allowing all the sound advice on this thread to go over your head, it proves all you really wanted to discuss was a troll you been on for some time now when you finish with Festae and Umbees.


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Sorry double post. Carry on, keep it useful not a pissing match thread.


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[the animal guy]

And as always he baited you out if that were the case.


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That was a really random assumption on your part animal towards duanes post, he's brought up some great points in differing populations having differing characteristics based on diet and environment that I don't think anyone could of explained better

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yeah you right. My bad. I was on caffeen like usual I think. But to me that's my honest input but couldve used better english.


so I think Locations are good when the water is completely separated. No door, no hole, no overflow, nothing.