Sump Concept and assistance

  • We are currently upgrading MFK. thanks! -neo
I probably don't understand this.

But, it's basically a screen conveyor system, using the water as the conveyor. The only issue I see is that the particles are still in suspension and will require water to be conveyed to the collection areas (the red boxes, assuming they are red). If that box has no drainage, the material will back flush up the ramp as the water collects. If instead it has limited drainage (e.g., 5 microns), it will indeed collect debris, but that debris will decompose and still drain materials back into the water column via the 5 micron passage.

It's a clever design which is quite interesting, although I'm not sure if it solves the problem you are trying to solve. If filter socks are in fact losing material due to pressure or particle disintegration, this might reduce that. The collection areas seem like they'd have very minimal flow pressure. By the same token, this area could become septic really fast with limited flow and a nearly stagnant pool of food / poo, etc.

What was your expected cleaning regimen for this or do you see that as an issue?

Nevertheless, at first blush, it's interesting.

Thank you very much! I take that as high praise for a concept at this early phase. I will start from the bottom and work up.

What was your expected cleaning regimen for this or do you see that as an issue?

I imagine my cleaning regimen to be almost as frequent as feedings i.e. several times a week and relatively painless. I plan to have a squeegee(sp?) and brush as well as a scoop to collect and discard any accumulation in a few seconds with no real fuss.

The collection areas seem like they'd have very minimal flow pressure. By the same token, this area could become septic really fast with limited flow and a nearly stagnant pool of food / poo, etc.

I agree, an area like this would become septic which is why I want to separate this crud as quickly as possible and keep it out of the water as much as possible.

It's a clever design which is quite interesting, although I'm not sure if it solves the problem you are trying to solve. If filter socks are in fact losing material due to pressure or particle disintegration, this might reduce that.

That's the hope anyway. I imagine fecal matter and rotting food in a filter sock.. yes it's stopping the bulk from passing, but that doesn't mean I want ALL water flowing through that same sock all the time does it?

If that box has no drainage, the material will back flush up the ramp as the water collects. If instead it has limited drainage (e.g., 5 microns), it will indeed collect debris, but that debris will decompose and still drain materials back into the water column via the 5 micron passage.

The whole assembly as drawn will have the same 150 micron drainage throughout including the collection area. In my feasibility test, any particles in the water were separated from the main stream and pushed outwards from the main flow. The screen angle is intended to create a basin for this solid material to collect for easy cleaning, but I will brush down the whole mesh to make sure flow isn't obstructed regularly. Ultimately I don't care if there is just a big ring around the main flow with built up waste or if some small percentage of the water acts as a carrier to the collection area because it won't be *IN* the primary water flow and burden the biofilter and remain in the water all the time.

But, it's basically a screen conveyor system, using the water as the conveyor. The only issue I see is that the particles are still in suspension and will require water to be conveyed to the collection areas (the red boxes, assuming they are red).

Exactly! There will be a primary flow area, and my thinking is that during feeding or cleaning there will be short intervals were there are unusually large amounts of solid debris to be collected. The spray pattern and area of screen to be wet at any time will greatly effect how much water will carry solid debris outwards until it no longer is in the primary flow. All of this remains to be proven long term.. It's still a theory that I'm excited to try out. In my mind, I'm hoping for the equivalent of a constant filter sock change. The bulk should be removed easily before being broken down for processing.
 
I should add, I work in a professional engineering field where particulates are extremely well studied. In the medical device field my first area of expertise was polymer extrusion where I learned that at the extreme pressures we used, NO FILTER was useful. At 300bar, the gelspots or unmelted/burned plastics that we wanted to remove are just forced through the micron filters and reassembled after momentary scission. Filtering was an illusion and at all pressures materials broke down to smaller sizes when pressure and flow required them to.

In my current field I am experienced in embolic filtering during trans catheter heart valve procedures. The goal is to stop calcium fragments from breaking off during aortic valve catheterization and flowing to the brain causing a stroke. Ultimately we use a deflector rather than a capture filter to influence the emboli. It just works easier and better to make sure particles of a significant concern go somewhere else, rather than trying to stop them once they get where they really shouldn't be.
 
Not trying to be a pain, but what will prevent the filter material from clogging? It is after all a filter material. And how will you clean it?
 
Not trying to be a pain, but what will prevent the filter material from clogging? It is after all a filter material. And how will you clean it?

You arent being a pain.. I'm sure it will clog to some extent but the plan is to be able to wipe and brush it down very quickly to clean out anything. The surface area will be pretty big. This material is very cool and I think you will like what you see in the video. It's a lot more expensive than a filter sock, but should last forever and hopefully work better.
 
I should add, I work in a professional engineering field where particulates are extremely well studied. In the medical device field my first area of expertise was polymer extrusion where I learned that at the extreme pressures we used, NO FILTER was useful. At 300bar, the gelspots or unmelted/burned plastics that we wanted to remove are just forced through the micron filters and reassembled after momentary scission. Filtering was an illusion and at all pressures materials broke down to smaller sizes when pressure and flow required them to.

Okay, I think I actually understand this part. :D

One of the things I always wondered about filter socks is that when they are at the end of an overflow, they are filtering water at speed (e.g., 6-10 ft/sec) with a large force behind it. Clearly they work, as everyone can see the obvious debris that is collected, but mechanically, I wondered what happened to some of the particles captured along the way. You seem to be saying that some amount are being disintegrated and forced through at some point. If the bottom of the sock is submerged, then the force is reduced by water shear, I imagine, but there still have to be some losses. Is this correct?
 
Okay, I think I actually understand this part. :D

One of the things I always wondered about filter socks is that when they are at the end of an overflow, they are filtering water at speed (e.g., 6-10 ft/sec) with a large force behind it. Clearly they work, as everyone can see the obvious debris that is collected, but mechanically, I wondered what happened to some of the particles captured along the way. You seem to be saying that some amount are being disintegrated and forced through at some point. If the bottom of the sock is submerged, then the force is reduced by water shear, I imagine, but there still have to be some losses. Is this correct?

Thats my thought anyway. I'm sure filter sock people could tell if they can see particles coming out when they change the sock, but even if they don't, there are chemicals being released in the water as long as the water is flowing through the poo/food. I may end up with a filter sock if I can't improve on them.
 
At what rate do the particles get broken down and pushed through???? I would assume that a rinse during weekly water changes would reduce the particles being pushed through by a high precentage??????
 
Thats a lot of ? marks. Were you asking me? I dont have those socks so I dont know.

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Everything I can find for use with such a fine filter screen is operated under pressure.
Here's a design that works similar to your screen but it's "often used as a first step in solid waste removal" and seems to be intended for much higher percentage of solid material than is found in aquaria.
http://everfilt.com/self_cleaning_filter_stb.php
I'm curious to see how yours works out.
 
Interesting idea, looking forward to seeing how it progresses if you put it into practice as removing the physical waste before it has a chance to break down and pollute the water is an often over-looked aspect of mechanical filtration. I like the idea of an easy to clean pre-filter before the filter socks and have toyed with several different designs for my up and coming tank build, I'll be keeping several large Panaques so with the amount of sawdust they make I'll need to have some sort of pre-filter or I'll be cleaning the socks daily.

This is what I'm running on my current over-stocked 400L tank, its sort of a crude low-tech (but very effective) version of what you're planning...

prefilter.jpg


netcrud.jpg


Just a standard fish net sitting on top of the filter wool that I can remove daily and rinse under the hose. And yep, that is ~24hours worth of crap in the second pic! Before I started running the net the filter wool in the sump only lasted a couple of days before completely clogging, now I can get 5-7 days depending on how heavily I feed. I must admit I can't take credit for the idea, a friend runs a similar system on his ~3000L tank.
 
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