I also tried covering myself by "" the Red Mammon to denote the fact that I was uncertain they where true Mammon and figured this would indicate my uncertainty as to their lineage and that I was merely quoting the seller.
My thought was this, if you are uncertain as you say, then knowing what you know, and don't know, then IMO the responsible thing would have been to leave them at SKKP. That was the higher standard that I was referring to. Every kid that comes along and reads something like what you posted (as mod on this site), and skims by the "" and carefully stated text, will simply see the pics, and the words Red Mammon, and assume that every KKP they see on the internet is now a Red Mammon.
Who cares what a seller calls something? Almost every week we have someone in the FH folder asking for an ID, even myself in the past because most SE Asian vendors (read middleman) just make names up as they go along. It's a marketing gimmick, plain and simple. King Kamfa sounds a LOT better then ZZ x (whatever) cross. That's how people often get bamboozled by overseas breeders, and their vendors.
In this case a farm has attempted to capitalize on a name, by selling KKP as the cream of the crop. (Red Mammon) At best it's a farce, at worst a lot of people will end up being unhappy with their purchase once they realize that they don't have a true Red Mammon. Don't you see that? I know that you're happy, and that's great, I'm happy for you, but it won't play out the same for many other hobbyists that are new to the FH/hybrid game. They want the status or "Red Mammon", and that's what they think they are paying for. Exactly the same thing happens on a regular basis here on MFK regarding "Super" Red Texas, which barely turn oiut to be run of the mill RT's. The only thing "super" about them is usually their price. There's just such a thread in this folder right now.
I have seen this happen a number of times over the years with Mammon, including here on MFK.
Here's a thread from almost 6 yrs ago that most here probably won't remember where that is exactly how things played out. The seller clearly had KKP and was selling them as "red mammon" because that's what they were sold to them as.
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?223447-Red-Mammon-s-from-Happy-Breed
Make sure to read post #10.
you do know there is a difference between happy breed kkp,and happy breed RED MAMON/INGOT right??they are both bred by hb,but hb kkp's go for around $500nt~$750nt(retail) a piece in taiwan,but true happy breed red mamon go for $3000nt+(retail)........i know u are very reputable among fh fans now ....therefore i hope u did not get trick by the thai importer,b'cuz i've talked to happy breed myself 8mons ago(was trying to bring a batch in,but they do not take oversea orders below 5g's),and they told me ,overseas or not ,they dunt sell RM's below 20cm(all fish has to pass a hand pick process,rest will be culled.) and guarantied that all red mamons will come with cert....and you can chip your rm for an additional $50nt /ea....
i posted here becuz....these look like hb kkp to me,very nice,but does not have the hb RM trait....
happy breed RED MOMON/INGOT traits:
1.body length have to be atleast equal to body height (if not shorter)
2. have to have a kok pop out(or else the fish will only qualify as a hb RED INGOT)
3.the fish will have to have a "smiling" mouth (if not closed) to qualify as a RM/RI
i hope these info helps
And to answer your question, and this follows the same logic as you previously stated with regards to who names a fish - the standards set for the fish thus named, comes from the same person who originally created them, and named them. As far as I know, only one person on the planet created Red Mammon, and it was NOT the person who is now using that name where your fish are sourced from so it stands to reason that the person flogging those fish, has created his own standards, ones that at least in some fish are clearly far below the Happy Breed Farm standards.
So to answer both yours & the person asking the following;
if you purchase 2 "Mammons" from the person who microchips them, then breed the 2 mammons and half the fry look like SKKP are they not mammons??? .
The answer would be no, because both the red devil looking fish of Kolt's, and the fish produced by 2 mammons, would only become true Red Mammons once they made the grade. This is no different than grading any other hybrid spawn, there will always be some super stars, some great specimens, a lot of good specimens, and some duds that should be culled, or at the very least marketed in a different manner, with a different name. This is exactly why Happy Breed never sold small juvies, and the fish marketed as Red Mammon by them were approx 20cm (8 inches) before they were sold.
And even within the true Red Mammon from Happy Breed farm, there are various grades, and prices to reflect those grades. You can see a couple of what I would personally consider lower grade Red Mammon in the link that I provided. And I have seen others, some where as much as $700 US was paid, and were purchased directly from HB farm.
Take your fish to Taiwan where they came from, Kolt, or post pics on some forums in SE Asia such as Singapore etc, and I suspect that you will be told exactly what I am telling you, at best your fish are KKP, and the red devil looking fish wouldn't even make that designation.
By the way you also cited the thread I cited about the Mammon fry. Well here's one of your quotes and it confuses me. Here you provide a link to one of Chris's threads as an example of grade A Mammon.
I never said that was a grade A Mammon, I said
fish. You might want to reread that entire post, it's pretty clear as to what I was saying. I also told Tom (Aquanero) that those were NOT red mammon when he posted the link, and then later he deleted it after I corrected him. Just for clarity sake, here's the entire comment in full.
There have been a number of "mammon type" breeders that have exported fish to the USA over the years, usually the name "Mammon" is attached, when in reality they are not true Mammon. (for reasons already mentioned) That does not mean that some of these fish aren't very nice, or that their fry don't turn out very nice, but they are not true Mammon. It is with these fish that vendors sell what they call Red Mammon fry. Usually they will just leave the actual farms name out of their advertisement, and maybe mention that they came from Taiwan. You can see this type of fish in the following past discussion - also note what a 3" A grade fish looks like.
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?475952-Red-Mammon
With Mammon, like most fancy strains of Asian bred fish, the true masterpiece show fish never leave Asia.
All we ever see are the photos on the interweb, none of those fish get exported. A friend of mine in town used to import Asian aros from Singapore, and most farms have special rooms in the back where only select buyers get to view the cream of the crop. With Asian aros, top buyers in the world are Chinese & Japanese. Businessman that will drop 25K on select fish without even blinking.
Asian aro collectors have a saying, buy the fish, not the cert. In other words focus on the fish, not what's written on a piece of paper. For myself I would look for the best "Mammon type" fish that I could find here in North America - get lots of pics, and video from the vendor, and then only shell out what you can afford to lose.
HTH
Hopefully that clears up the confusion that you were having. It comes as no surprise to me where these fish were coming from, and/or who was selling them, then or now.
And just so there's no future confusion, in that post I just quoted I clearly suggested that personally I would look for the best "Mammon type" fish that I could find here in North America - because IMO the true Red Mammon sold by HB farm are ridiculously overpriced. Not that some of the SKKP's aren't just as ridiculously overpriced as well, but at least one can save by buying smaller juvies.
I'm certainly not an authority beyond reproach, sorry if I came off that way, I'm just an old fart who lives back in the hills. But my eyes are still good enough to tell a KKP when I see one.
Cheers!
In all seriousness the farm could have come up with any number of new names for their fish, but instead they chose to use a name that had already been successfully established among hobbyists. All that did is add confusion, and years later it's still confusing for many hobbyists. How do you reckon you would feel if you were the owner of Happy Breed farm, and had been the one to create this special line of fish? Personally I would be pissed, as I suspect most business owners would be. 