Taking the plung need advice.

[nfored]

Okay I finishing week 2 of my 6 week nitrate test, once this test is done I will convert to either an automatic water changer or a drip system.

My current setup allows some flexibility, I am looking for poor vs con in auto changer vs drip.

The current tank is on a sump, there is already a water line ran to the tank from the houses main water supply. The tank itself is plumbed to the houses drainage system, making an auto water changer the easiest solution, Just need 2 times and 2 solenoid one for the drain and one for the water supply. I would of course need a way to add prime, possible a dosing pump.

Option 2 is to ad a 2" PVC over flow to the sump and do a drip system. I just fear that because my sump is only 55 gallons it will overflow. In order for the sump to have enough water to run it has to be 75% full when not running. This means I would have to set the overflow to this level to ensure that it always had enough water. So here is the problem I set the overflow to the 75% mark, as the drip system starts it fills to this spot. Then when the power goes off the tank will drain, the overflow will have to flow faster then the tank to prevent floods. The tank has 2 Vertical 2" overflows drilled in it.

auto changer:
dosing pump
2 solenoids
2 7 day timers timers.

drip:
chloramine filter or prime dosing pump and diluted prime solution.
Big Ole Overflow.
Pressure regulators.
Drip emitters.

Both will evolve similar expenses,both could have a failure in the dosing pump, or ineffective chloramine filter.

drip system by its very nature is less efficient then a water change, both in terms of water used, and in terms of dilution. if u did water changes using the same amount of water in 1 week that you did with a drip you would have better performance with a water change.

So what do you think. Thoughts, opinions, pros, cons.


If you suggest a drip system please suggest GPD drip. 220 gallon tank 55 Gallon sump, currently doing one 50% per week WC.

 

[Danger_Chicken]

I've done both and prefer the drip. There are cheaper and easier to build. I did enjoy designing and building the auto changer more and it made it very easy to drain the tank when I need to.

You don't need a large overflow on the sump for a drain, mine are built with 1" pvc and 1/2" pvc. I use aqualifters on them to ensure the syphon. They are low flow which is all you need. The amount of drip depends on your bio-load, mine average .5-1g hr on a 220, 180 and 125. I had problems with drip emmiters clogging (with and without a pressure regulator) so I went for the adjustable valve. They don't clog and I can change the rate or stop the flow as needed.

I didn't have to deal with chloramines. With either system you could have a drum or trash can filled with water that gets treated and aireated and have that supply the system.

Check out neo's thread for lowflow overflows and dosing system.
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19920

An auto changer is more effecient but not by much. You get cleaner water after the change but the fish have to swim the progressively dirty water longer (until the next change) with a drip the water quaility stays consistant.

Here's one of my overflows, the airline on tops is were the aqualifter connects. I would lose teh syphon everyday before I add the lifters.

 

[nfored]

So you think with a dual 1 inch over flow I could handle a power outage? That is the key, I mean at 24 to 50 gallons a day a 1/2 overflow could easily handle the drip system overflow.

My fear is that when the system is running normally 75% of sump capacity, then the power goes of. Then the main tank will start draining into the sump, if the overflow in the sump can't match the speed then it will overflow and flood the house. I know from testing that a pvc overflow of 1" can do at max under full siphon handle around 300GPH.

I have never tested my tanks dual 2" overflow but I am sure that it can drain faster then 600GPH. Man where is Chomper when you need him with some cool flow calculations.

 

[Danger_Chicken]

I've left the adjustable valves wide open when filling the tank, they say that is 20g hr and the overflows couldn't handle it. I've never need to push them more then 2g an hr and they handle that fine.

You should design your sump to be big enough to handle the overflow from the tank or you're going to get in trouble. Your overflows on the tank should be setup to only allow an inch of water to drain before they stop, about 20g or less. You can setup the overflows on the sump to keep the water level low enough to allow for room in a power outage, but you're overflow water will drain to normal level and you have to make sure there will be enough water in the sump so the pump doesn't run dry while the drip is refilling after the power returns. I think it's best to keep the sump level under 50%.

I used a 27g heavy duty tub from home depot as a sump, drilled a hole in the side and plumbed it to the drain. It can handle the power outage overflow from my 220, but just barely.

 

[nfored]

I've left the adjustable valves wide open when filling the tank, they say that is 20g hr and the overflows couldn't handle it. I've never need to push them more then 2g an hr and they handle that fine.

You should design your sump to be big enough to handle the overflow from the tank or you're going to get in trouble. Your overflows on the tank should be setup to only allow an inch of water to drain before they stop, about 20g or less. You can setup the overflows on the sump to keep the water level low enough to allow for room in a power outage, but you're overflow water will drain to normal level and you have to make sure there will be enough water in the sump so the pump doesn't run dry while the drip is refilling after the power returns. I think it's best to keep the sump level under 50%.

I used a 27g heavy duty tub from home depot as a sump, drilled a hole in the side and plumbed it to the drain. It can handle the power outage overflow from my 220, but just barely.

Sump is designed to work with the system as is, and can handle the power outage with no problem. The problem would come from adding a drip system, since a drip system means that you have to run sump at what ever level the system would be at when the power is off.

Let me explain. "Just an example"

Lets say that when the sump is running that the sump level needs to be at 50% to keep the pump from sucking air. Okay now the sump is up running with the power on at 50%, then the power goes off or the sump is shutdown. At this time the system files to 75% still lots of room and no problem.

That is how a normal sump works, now lets look at the drip system.

You keep the setup the same, but you now have to add an overflow for the water your adding. If you add that overflow anywhere below 75% lets say 60%, the system will drip until it hits 60% still no big deal. Now the power goes off and the sump fills up to 98% but then drains to 60% where the over flow is.

Now when you power backup since the sump is at 60% and not the 75% where it would normally be, it start running at 35% and not the normal 50%. So now your pump is sucking air and could burn up or flow to slowly to filter the water. This will self correct eventually due to the drip but will not run correctly until that 15% is replaced.

This is a problem you will always have if you don't build the sump with having a drip system in mind. So essentially you will have to have a sump that can hand the normal tank drain plus the extra space needed to drip.

 

[jcardona1]

i see what youre saying about the 75% problem and issues with having a drip system. i like drip systems for the simplicity of them. mine couldnt be easier.

have you checked to see how much water will go down into your sump after power shut-off? maybe adjusting your overflows somehow so they dont drain so much when the power goes out?

 

[jcardona1]

and it works on my 400g because of the way my sump is. all i have is one inlet and one exit. there are no dividers, no baffles, nothing. just an empty 90g tank filled with ceramic media in laundry bags. this way i can set my drain line low and still have plenty of room to catch all the extra water, and enough water to start the system back up again

 

[jcardona1]

another reason i like drip systems, if the power goes out for a long period of time, you have no filtration and no water changing if you go the solenoid route. with a drip, you at least still have some fresh water going in/out. this could be helpful if you get a bad storm that knocks power out for several days

 

[nfored]

those are awsome points, I also have essentailly an empty tank for a sump, this allows us to run smaller sumps then those that have dividers and balfes. I will play around with overflows to try to reduce the water level. I'll try to post some testing information.

so anyone else have pro's or cons to share? I really like the power outage pro. Provided I filter out the chlorimnes I can increase the drip during an outage to keep fresh oxygenated water flowing in.

 

[Danger_Chicken]

another reason i like drip systems, if the power goes out for a long period of time, you have no filtration and no water changing if you go the solenoid route. with a drip, you at least still have some fresh water going in/out. this could be helpful if you get a bad storm that knocks power out for several days

I think this is what saved my fish over the winter when I lost power. I lost one 3" ebjd, everyone else was fine. It was only 9-10hrs but I have friends that lost 75% of their fish in 8hrs without power and I'm stocked as heavy.

I don't think you'll burn up the pump if it's sucking air for a an hour or 3 (it'l be noisy). Running dry is what you have to worry about. What you described is what I was trying to describe too. I don't know what kind of pump you are using but you should be able to get away running it without sucking air at 1/3 full.