The BAD Boys- living with wyckioides and wykii

[Fishman Dave]

The year - 2006 - i had been keeping fish since 1981 but had never kept an asian red tailed catfish. I had kept the usual redtail and had one at the time. My first ARTC started as a 2" baby however after a year he was big enough to join his namesake in a 500 gal pond with viewing window.
At the time i knew the fish as Mystus Nemurus, so was the confusion surrounding this creature.
I had no experience of this fish and knew no one who had kept one, only the books to go on, and by all accounts this was a fish that made pirahna look friendly. If the books were to be anything to go by, it would not live with anything without an argument and its tank mates loosing bits.
Well, the books couldnt have been more wrong. This fish grew to over 20" in this pond with varius different tank mates over time, none small enough to eat in one go ( im not that trusting) but never argued, fell out or disagreed with anything, including the mystus leucosis, the redtail, a giraffe cat, tinfoils, oscars, giant gourami, plecs, etc. Although all are different families i know.
Since that first ARTC i have upgraded my pond, and have now 3 ARTC brothers, bought three with the plan to give 2 away.
This is a fish that i dont see often in the hobby.
Is it rare, no not by any means, just the opposite, its £4 a fish, sale price, so less than £2 trade. The problen, then is that you have to buy 50 at a time and what business in their right mind want 40 customers bringing back a 9" catfish that has eaten all their community fish - yes i said they can be friendly, but not with anything that will fit in their mouth.
So, when they got to 8", i just could not bear to part with them, they had been raised seperately and now was the test, would they live together?
I had found nothing suggesting anyone had ever tried in confined spaces.
Well, i am now over 1year in , they are eating slow and growing slow (although four 5"tinfoils went missing- but there are other potential culprits).
They currently are housed in larger quarters but still not a lifetime home, the one thing which REALLY helps is that their pond is double lined (one of their tank mates is a pacu) and the pond has multiple pipes and tree branches and the second liner has a tear in it which allows the redtails and 3 18" clarias behind to hide/sleep/live. This means that each can have their own unique teritory.
Tank mates include vulture cat, 5 pim maculatus, 18" lima shovelnose, 2 mystus leucosis, 15" sperata oar along with two 28" rescue pengasius, 2 20" giant gourami, oscars and various 8"barbs.
Now, i also have a 5" albino ARTC and if i was asked - this is NOT the same fish. I have seen multiple albinos for sale but i do not believe these albinos to be hemibagrus wyckioides. They dont have the same demeanour, and if i had to say, these are either what was mystus docmac or mystus nemurus and i dont expect this albino to grow over the 2ft mark whereas the wyckioides i do expect to reach 3ft or potentially more.
Whilst i have only ever seen friendly ARTC i cannot say the same for wykii.(see my next post)
Would love to hear from other owners/keepers/enthusiasts of these great fish.

 

[Fishman Dave]

In 2015 i visited a local fish store in the uk and there in a 70g tank all by itself was a black catfish that just sat and watched me, no matter where i went. This 8" fish wouldnt live with anything else. It had a beautiful white stripe up the front of the dorsal fin and on the top edge of its tail.
Within 30 minutes i was leaving with a bargain £60 (less than half the marked price).

Now, she lives in her own 150 g tank and is a special "pet". She is hand fed and takes full fillets of coley, one a week. But when i say hand fed, i mean by keeping my hands out of the tank, done that and once was enough, id rather keep my fingers, and yes i do belive she would do her best to take them off me. I tried housing her with 2 ft gibiceps plecs when she was younger but she made a mess of them over night. Since then she has been alone.
She does the decorrating, and that soon meant removing all the gravell, oe she would, by trin to push it all through the pond pump running her filter.
She has one cave, and thats a huge slab of rock sat on house bricks, but since she smashed her first tank base i had to silicone the bricks and rock in place. A 20" wykii is a really powerfull fish and she can move the rocks underwater easier than i can.
(Photos to come with an update)
Would love to hear your stories

 

[Fishman Dave]

 

[moe214]

Great read. Now I will swarm you with questions jk. Thanks for the pics as well. Now I seen you mention in another post that wyckioides is only 1', you being the only person I've seen saying they're friendly except tbtb, who's was aggressive in a 240 but not in his 4500g, have you kept any at 20"+ with tank mates? I always believed they would be compatible with other fish just needed a lot of space. Have you tried the wyckii in the large pond? is the wyckii the only one you kept? As we know specimens can have their own personality. How do you know your wyckioides are so friendly? They are pretty nocturnal. And from what you say in other posts it isn't the easiest to view your fish in the pond. not trying to denote what you say just questioning for further understanding. How big is the pond?

I've no experience with nemurus but or "albino artc" but i can tell you it isn't a wyckioides. body proportions are completely different. Noone has grown one over 1' from what i can remember off the top of my head.

My experience is wyckioides is much worse than wyckii. but my wyckioides was larger than my wyckii. Wyckii was 1' vs wyckioides growing from 16" to 2' estimated. Both in a 120g. Tried both with tank mates. Wyckioides killed many fish that were 1' such as a wolf, some cichlids only one i remember was a buttikoferi, 2 blochii, and a gar maybe a goby. it bothered everything in the tank whether they stood at the top or bottom, it was like "seek and destroy". The only thing that survived was a 1' leporinus which it couldn't catch but tried day and night, the leporinus surely nipped at the artcs rear end when it tried to rest. my wyckii was only aggressive over its hide, when it came out to eat it left everything alone. It made itself disliked by my curu who was previously only contested by the odoe who was to fast to catch, the wyckii ended up dying, however not directly by the wolf, but could have surely been weakened by it. Wyckioides I ended up bringing to my lfs when was 15 or 16 if you're wondering now. This is a quick summary of my experience. wyckii is my favorite cat and I'm intrigued by wyckioides so I've done much reading, which is why i wanted you to share to add to any experience i can recollect.

 

[Fishman Dave]

Hi, don't mind the questions at all.
My original ARTC was 20" with tank mates in 500 gal pond/ linered brick tank with viewing pane. He/she was the first real friendly one.
When I lost that one I dabbled with a number of albinos but they were obviously not true wyckiodes as they were slimmer, faster more active cats which don't tend to gorge themselves. And as you say, never grew fast or large, I never had one bigger than a foot, although trying again now.
No guarantee my wyckioides are all friendly, I did lose 4 off 5" tinfoils, my stupid fault, but I do have a pengasius sanitwongsei at 28" with an 8" wide mouth, although that leaves fish alone.
One point to note here is temperature!
The pond is 76 to 82 for the summer but then 67 to 74 for winter - and before you say it , yes 67. If it gets below 69 the water gets heated to 74 and then starts to cool off to 69 again. This selection live half the year at these lower temperature water conditions, hence slower growth and less aggression. Although, my original 20 inch one was in 78 all year round.

The three in the same pond currently are in 1200 gals , like I said elsewhere, not a forever home I know. Yes I tried the wyckii in the pond but she didn't fair well with the cold, she had been used to 78 all yr round and you can tell quite soon if a fish won't get used to low temps. Would like to try her in there but don't think 10-12" wyckioides would stand a chance, nore would the 15"sperata oar.
Only ever had the one wyckii and yes like you say, all fish have different tempraments but have yet to come across someone who owns/owned a friendly wyckii.
Wyckii would sit in its house most of the time but then destroy the tank either in the dark or if I turned my back, never whilst you watch.
Wyckioides were all three grown on in 4ft community tanks with medium jaguar cichlid, clown loach, ghost knifes, and severum till they reached between 5and 8" and then they moved into the pond.
I have netted the smaller one( he is the pics, he has a kink in his tail), I see one of the other two now and then , he lives behind the first liner on one side of the pond, so in the dark most of the day, other than his whiskers coming out in front of the viewing pane where the main tear and entrance to his lair is. Him and the three clarias spend mosrt of their time out of sight, even though the pond has caves, pipes, tree roots and branches and a 3 ft decked over area for cover. This means the fish act much more naturally, happier to swim out in daytime, except the wyckiodes, if i want to watch them , then its a redlight at 2am, they dont do open swimming and certainly not during the day.

 

[oshp132]

Awesome read. Thanks for sharing.

 

[thebiggerthebetter]

My first ARTC ... grew to over 20" in this pond with varius different tank mates over time, none small enough to eat in one go ( im not that trusting) but never argued, fell out or disagreed with anything, including the mystus leucosis, the redtail, a giraffe cat, tinfoils, oscars, giant gourami, plecs, etc.

*****Very interesting. I wanna say atypical but a lot depends on the setup. If that 500 gal was as heavily scaped as the current one, that might have helped.

Since that first ARTC i have upgraded my pond (TBTB: to 1200 gal), and have now 3 ARTC... I had found nothing suggesting anyone had ever tried in confined spaces. Well, i am now over 1year in , they are eating slow and growing slow... the one thing which REALLY helps is that their pond is double lined ... and the pond has multiple pipes and tree branches and the second liner has a tear in it which allows the redtails and 3 18" clarias behind to hide/sleep/live. This means that each can have their own unique teritory.
Tank mates include vulture cat, 5 pim maculatus, 18" lima shovelnose, 2 mystus leucosis, 15" sperata oar along with two 28" rescue pengasius, 2 20" giant gourami, oscars and various 8"barbs.

*****Great experiment and surprising success. I'd imagine there is little DO and a lot of toxins in the water in between the liners, as it is not a part of the filtered and aerated water mass in the main water body.

Now, i also have a 5" albino ARTC and if i was asked - this is NOT the same fish. I have seen multiple albinos for sale but i do not believe these albinos to be hemibagrus wyckioides. They dont have the same demeanour, and if i had to say, these are either what was mystus docmac or mystus nemurus and i dont expect this albino to grow over the 2ft mark whereas the wyckioides i do expect to reach 3ft or potentially more.

*****I assume you are talking about a fish we came to know as Hemibagrus nemurus, the fish that is farmed for food in SE Asia and we get culls and poor performers from those aquaculture operations, which is likely the reason none of the ones we know of grew beyond ~1'. Here is a thread on my specimen: https://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/...s-stuck-at-1-for-4-years.679720/#post-7642518

Would love to hear from other owners/keepers/enthusiasts of these great fish.

*****Sorry, instead of a story, I'll just fetch a link to my ARTC thread. Only ever had one: https://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/posts/7626006


&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&


In 2015 i visited a local fish store in the uk and there in a 70g tank all by itself was a black catfish... This 8" fish wouldnt live with anything else... Now, she lives in her own 150 g tank and is a special "pet". She is hand fed and takes full fillets of coley, one a week. But when i say hand fed, i mean by keeping my hands out of the tank, done that and once was enough, id rather keep my fingers, and yes i do belive she would do her best to take them off me.

*****Haha, that is funny.

Would love to hear your stories.

*****A small write-up on my 3 wyckiis I did for some other thread: ... Cat-eLog states these (wyckiis) can be combined with other large fish in public-size aquaria. Does not explicitly say if with each other. Don't know how big a tank should be to attempt the latter but I've had two ~1.3' wykiis in my 25'x6'x3' pond. Beautiful black fish with coquettish white bands on the upper caudal lobe. Easy to handle, they let me lift them up and out of the water with one bare hand for a moment and put them back, all without a wiggle or a fight. They can easily defend themselves from 4-5 times bigger (by weight) hungry predators like my 2.5' TSN Terroristo and 2.5' TSNxRTC hybrid Evans. They attack them back, if those try, and send them flying across the whole pond. Needless to say no one goes into their holes and if they do they dart out of there as if on fire.

*****For several months my wyckiis did nothing but hid only 1-2 meters away from each other in two clay pots. Never knew of each others existence and proximity (it is a supposition but I've never seen them fight each other and never any physical damage on them). Then, one day when I was vacuuming for an n-th time and lifted their pots, they, eventually, found each other. There is some serious dislike between those two. They would not stop fighting and even after I separated them by chasing one away into his farthest clay haven, I found them fighting 15 min later. Eventually, one of them had to go behind the divider to join 1.5' wallago leerii, two 2' alligator gars and Co. He let me lift him out of the water and throw behind the divider. So peace was gained back...

*****This may be helpful too: http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=32376&hilit=+wykii

***** justarn 's classic wyckii story https://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/...-cat-in-a-300g-community.549472/#post-6561912

 

[Fishman Dave]

Hi all,
Just back after 2 weeks away, leaving my parents in charge of the fish. Boy I hate these family holidays as a fish keeper.
Some great links there Victor, and thanks for that.
I think we can all agree that both h. Wyckii and Wyckiodes can be nasty fish but sometimes they can surprise us also, letting us into their worlds, and being nicer than expected.
Came back to find that I had left the fish house air con on, constantly drawing in air at 10 degrees both day and night. Unfortunately, the unheated pond spent at least a week at 64 degrees. Not something I would recommend any try. However, my only casualty was the one fish I thought might have fared best, the sperata aor. Rest are sluggish but well. Water back up to 72 now.

On returning I have been treated to a view of two of the artc brothers appearing from behind the first liner together.

I can confirm that they don’t like each other, but do put up with each other. They both had a bit of a go, then went their own ways, back into the gap between the two liners.

Just to answer a few queries posted.
Yes, I think having rocks, wood, pipes etc. Certainly helps limit aggression, I think that the lower water temp also helps, during the summer months with temps up towards 80 to 86 i find more activity and more aggression in many of the fish in the pond ( especially the 2 ft black shark).

The gap between two liners is purely accidental. They were there to cover for the pacu biting through one, as has happened in the past ( should have just gone with box welded to cut out the creases) but to be honest I also didn’t trust myself with the first liner siliconed to the viewing pane, so did it twice(even though it’s not the first time I’ve gone this way). Over the past couple of years a tear appeared in the top (pvc) liner which the fish have exploited and got between that and the butyl liner.
Yes, didn’t really want them behind there as the white gunk on the walls between the two liners means that toxins are a worry, so I have doubled up on the size of the filter just in case. Now, the artc’s and the three Clarias seem to keep the water turning over and “throw out “ anything they don’t want in with them. They do their own housekeeping and do seem to move about a great deal in the darkness.
I really don’t look forward to the day I have to empty the pond and redo the liner, as this will no doubt mean a paddling pool in my dining room to house all the fish temporarily. Really ought to start on with building a new fish house but space is limited.

As for the albino, yes most definitely nemurus. Back when I had my first (many years ago) they were all mixed up with the wyckiodes and docmak but agree with you that they are not albino artc’s.

Thanks again for the great links and great stories of your own fantastic fish.

 

[jpcampbell123]

awsome

 

[Fishman Dave]

Well here is a little update.
One of the larger artc brothers decided he didn't want to share the space behind the liner anymore and the photod brother ended up in the dustbin!.
As a replacement ( sort of) I moved the wykii into the pond for the summer. She seems to have settled in really well and not eaten anything yet (fish wise) from silver dollars, silver sharks upwards so that's good. She has however after a couple of weeks found how to get behind the liner so now the three clarias are back in the main pond!