The Dreaded DE

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CTU2fan;2879149; said:
Could you 2 get a room, or take it to pm, something...no one, and I mean NO ONE else cares.

That shows you care! ;)

sodenoshirayuki;2879225; said:
What else should we add? We could always just do it like the tanning sticky way, delete all posts and close it.

That sticky is an experienced procedure. What's this one? A gathering of all "I think" and "may be." There is no single proven fact in the discussion, including the "DE developed 30 mins after the arowana jumped." That is more likely a coincident than "proven theory." Is it really the hit on the head caused the DE? Is there another known incident like that to back it up? Why does it take 30 mins, instead of instantly? What else happened within those 30 mins that could cause the DE? How often that he observed his arowana before the incident happened to decide that it didn't have DE prior to the incident? The questions could goes on and on.

ethnics;2875713; said:
i read the whole thread, and every thread before yours and before your time. i jus recently got nat geo channel, im not so lucky and pay extra just for the channel. so unfortunately i haven't been blessed with seeing that awesome show. i'll wait for it to come on, learn a few things, and post back...

as if knowing about wild aros will help me understand why our aros geto it. it just happens, its like talking about flounders who are born with eyes normal, and they adjust n rotate to 1 side. it just happens, to every fish. jus like DE, jus happens to every aro, eventually. 1-5yrs and it didn't happen yet? keep it alive long enough, it'll get it

He said it all, but who listens? That was from one of several who keeps and sees several types of arowana, not one or two, or with several in his signature.

Well,let see how much information the OP provides

sodenoshirayuki;2868986; said:
This is your completely guide to dropeye(DE). MOST questions about DE will be answered here, but I'm sure there are many more. If there is a question that isnt covered here, feel free to ask as it might be important.

Outline

1. Explanation on DE and so called "cures".
2. First will be an order from greatest chance to least chance of getting DE.
3. Second will be the myths on what causes DE.
4. Third will be contradictions within each myth.
5. Fourth will be what makes sense in each myth.

What Is Drop Eye and How Can You Prevent It?

To start off I want to state dropeye, is NOT a disease or a sickness, it will not be spread and it will not be caught. Dropeye is very self explanatory, its when an arowana's eye(s) are looking down. Some aros get very light DE where the eye is slightly angled down, while there are some very extreme cases where the eye looks as if it will fall out at any given second.

There are currently nothing that can prevent or cure DE at the moment. THe only "cure" is to put your arowana in a huge pond, but this has not been proven and may not work as wild arowanas have DE too. It has also been said that floating ping pong balls in your tank will solve DE as your arowana will look up at it. Your arowana will give it 10 seconds of interest and go back to doing what it always does. It might even be hazardous if you have a big arowana that can swallow the ping pong ball. To put it short, there are NO proven cures as of now.

There is so-called "cure" for DE - eye surgery (but who wants to do that :grinno:.) There is not a way to prevent DE

Which Aro Is Most Prone?

Silver Arowana- When you say DE, the first arowana that people think of is the silver arowana. There has yet to be a picture of a silver arowana without DE over 20". DE usually starts developing after the aro hits 16".

Like someone pointed out, a member here has an arowana larger than 20" without DE

Jardini/Leichardti Arowana- Jardinis and leichardtis are both aussie arowanas, they are NOT the same, but will be grouped the same for this. Jars/leis do not develop DE as common as silvers, but the majority of them do after hitting 16"-18".

How many of them that is known to consider "marjority of them?" I have seen much less Jardini/Leichardti with DE than Asian

Asian Arowana- The asian arowana has a very low chance of getting DE. Though it is not common, it does not mean they cannot get it. Usually, DE is only found on the bigger asian aros (24"), and rarely, if ever, found on a smaller aro.

Personally, I have seen well dozen of Asian arowanas with DE (greens, reds, xback) that were less than 20", one even as small as 5" from a reputable farm in southeast Asia! Perhaps, before you typed that comment, do some research on Arofanatics, ask some Asian arowana breeder/vendor available on this forum, instead of base it on the 15 arowanas in your signature, will help you realize how common DE happens in Asian arowana

African Arowana- The african arowana is not a true arowana but will be included into this. African arowanas cannot or will rarely ever get DE. There has yet to be a photograph of an african arowana with DE (on mfk and google of course).
Black Arowanas- Like the african arowana, the black arowana cannot or will rarely ever get DE. There is also no photographs of black arowanas with DE.

*May not be relevant with DE, but it is still worth mentioning. Arowanas slow their growth rate when they reach the 16"-18" mark, this is exactly the same time that DE starts to develop in most arowanas. Are these 2 events connected somehow?*

What Causes DE?

So heres the important question, if there are no cures for it, then what causes it? There is no definite proof yet to answer this question. We still have no idea what cuases DE but we do have many theories. Below is a list of the most common myths and beliefs on how DE is formed. There is probably many more, but there are too many, thus only the most common ones will be listed.
(I will refer to each belief by number after listing them)

Beliefs:
1. DE caused from excess fat
2. DE caused from head trauma*
3. DE from tank reflection
4. DE from strong light
5. DE from looking down
6. DE from genetics

Meaning:
1. DE is caused by an arowana eating too many fatty foods like feeder goldfish. The fat builds up behind the eye and pushes it down, causing DE.
2. DE is caused by an arowana hitting the tank sides too hard. The trauma or shock from it losens the eye from its socket and the aro develops DE.
3. DE is caused by the tank reflecting light. The light reflects into the arowana's eyes and cuases DE.
4. DE is caused by strong lights. The arowana is bothered by the light, thus it has to look in a different direction and the eyes look down and DE develops.
5. DE is caused by an arowana looking down. No matter the cause, whether it be becuase of light or becuase it is looking for food, when it looks down, it starts to get used to it and eventually becomes permanent thus having DE.
6. DE is caused by genetics.

What Doesn't Makes Sense?


1. If DE is caused by fatty foods, then why do only some aros get it? Why can't we prevent DE by feeding lean foods if it is caused by excess fat buildup? Why don't blacks or africans get DE even if you gutload them with feeders?
2. If DE is caused by head trauma, why would asian aros be less prone to get it than silvers? Why would they have DE in the wild if there is really nothing for them to ram their head into in the wild?
3. If DE is caused by light reflections going into the eye, then why can't it be cured by simply turning off all the lights and not letting any light get to the arowana?
4. If DE is caused by the arowana looking in a different direction due to lights, why can't we just cure it by turn off all lights and wrapping the tank in black?
5. If an arowana gets DE by looking down, why can't we just take away all factors that make it look down?
6. If DE is caused by genetics, what makes almost all, if not all, silvers get DE while only a selected number of asian arowanas able to get DE?

What Makes Sense?

1. When you think about it, when humans gain weight, they get bigger and bulkier. If an arowana worked the same way, there could be fat build up behind the eyes thus pushing it out.
2. We always see it in the movies, someone gets hit in the back of the head, and their eyes come popping out, this can also apply with an arowana when the arowana rams into the tank glass. This would also explain why silvers and aussies are more prone to get it than asian arowanas. Silvers and aussies are very jumpy and skittish arowanas, they will dart when they get scared (which is very often) and is not surprising if it hits the tank glass while asian arowanas are more calm and will not be scared as easily, thus explaining while asian arowanas are less prone to DE. African arowanas are also the calmest out of all arowanas, which would mean it would rarely dart into the glass, thus, rarely ever having head trauma.

I really like the movie comment :D What movie that you saw with that kind of special effect "hit in the back of the head and the eyes come popping out?" Spongebob Squarepants? :ROFL: To say Asian or African arowanas are more calm and will not be scared as easily shows that you havent seen those in your life. All arowanas are skittish and jumpy when they're young, some may get use to human surround, while some couldn't shake that off

3. Lights are harmful, especially to the naked eye. If human eyes can be hurt by light, arowanas might also be the same.
4. It is basic reaction that when something is shot at your eye, you either block your eyes from it, or you move your eyes elsewhere. Arowanas have nothing that can shield their eyes, thus they would need to look elsewhere.
5. Humans have habits, so do fish. If we start to slouch for a long period of time, we will be accustommed to it, same can be said for an arowana looking down.
6. Genetics would explain why silvers are very prone to DE while blacks are virtually immune to it even though they are both very similar. This would also prove why you cannot prevent or cure it.

*Special Point* Have you noticed the asterisk on point number 2? The theory that head trauma causes DE is the ONLY theory that has been proven, not just by one but by many people. Bderick67 is one of those people who have personally witnessed his own silver arowana develop DE in just a mere 30 minutes right after it jumped out and hit its head.

To sum it up, what do I know about DE? NOTHING! NOTHING is really provent to be the cause of DE, and NOTHING you can do to prevent DE. Thus, I rather chose not to mislead others, since I'm disgusted many time to see someone at the gas station to give wrong direction to people who was lost, instead of saying he doesn't know. For heavenly sake, the people is already lost, and instead of pointing them to the right direction, you make it worst!
 
jlnguyen74;2880186; said:
That shows you care! ;)



That sticky is an experienced procedure. What's this one? A gathering of all "I think" and "may be." There is no single proven fact in the discussion, including the "DE developed 30 mins after the arowana jumped." That is more likely a coincident than "proven theory." Is it really the hit on the head caused the DE? Is there another known incident like that to back it up? Why does it take 30 mins, instead of instantly? What else happened within those 30 mins that could cause the DE? How often that he observed his arowana before the incident happened to decide that it didn't have DE prior to the incident? The questions could goes on and on.



He said it all, but who listens? That was from one of several who keeps and sees several types of arowana, not one or two, or with several in his signature.

Well,let see how much information the OP provides



To sum it up, what do I know about DE? NOTHING! NOTHING is really provent to be the cause of DE, and NOTHING you can do to prevent DE. Thus, I rather chose not to mislead others, since I'm disgusted many time to see someone at the gas station to give wrong direction to people who was lost, instead of saying he doesn't know. For heavenly sake, the people is already lost, and instead of pointing them to the right direction, you make it worst!

:iagree:

For sure as hell, we don't know crap about DE yet... And not to be rude or anything, but I kind of find it hard to believe that the OP just somehow became an Arowana expert, when juste sometimes ago he posted something like this...

sodenoshirayuki;2541990; said:
uhm, sure...you do know black aros are just silvers that are born under different water parameters right...same with all this crap about "blue tinted" aros...not that its a good thing and silvers look like crap anyway...
 
The genetics thing makes the most sense.

And although they're both types of arowanas, one is Osteogolossum and the other one is Scleropages, so yes, one can be more prone than the other one.

Otherwise, good write up.
 
EKen;2880415; said:
:iagree:

For sure as hell, we don't know crap about DE yet... And not to be rude or anything, but I kind of find it hard to believe that the OP just somehow became an Arowana expert, when juste sometimes ago he posted something like this...

There is a term for that - "wannabe!" :grinno: Or else, why would someone put 15 red aro as his signature and couldn't provide a pic of one! :screwy:
 
jlnguyen74;2880186; said:
"DE developed 30 mins after the arowana jumped." That is more likely a coincident than "proven theory." Is it really the hit on the head caused the DE? Is there another known incident like that to back it up?

Very well could be a coincidence. With one of my two silvers it happen twice, to each eye on separate occasions. Never did it happen in 30 minutes but it did happen within hours.

First time the aro was 16" long and had no DE. While transferring to a larger tank the arowana did experience severe head trauma while being caught. Later after in the new tank the DE was apparent in the right eye. A few months later then aro, about 21", freaked out during a tank cleaning. It hit the top corner brace a couple of times very violently. That night before turning the lights out, DE had developed in the left eye.

There have been numerous people that have reported the same. There have been numerous others to report that the DE appeared or worsened almost instantly. Here are a few examples

johnptc;771937; said:
imo which is not scientific at this point i believe it to be caused by one of two reasons.......

1) fatty tissue buildup behind the eye...pushing it out
2) physical shock/injury to the head........

john

likestofish;2745058; said:
my silver got de within a day of hitting the lid of his tank rely hard.

DustMite;2743436; said:
I think it's from putting a monkey fish used to jumping in the wild in a aquarium.I have seen 5 out of 8 Arowanas I have raised in the past smash my lids and instantly have DE. I may be wrong but I have a 20'' that has no drop eye but she is the most calm aro I have owned and has never hit my lids that I know of.

TwoBrownDogs;2798824; said:
I just got back from a long weekend to find both of my Arows have there left eye like this? They have had eye drop but this looks like there eye is going to fall out. They will not eat and are ackting like they are going crazy. Please help if you can..

jphillips2020;2745998; said:
Yeah I pretty much agree mine had no drop eye then one day hit the lid really hard and ended up on the floor somehow probably HOB filter hole. Found him mostly dry and laying on his left side he has had drop eye on his left side ever since.


demjor19;2367864; said:
Mine had no DE up until it was about 15"...then it had a few bad jumps into the hood and the DE showed up on the injured side of the head within a day. I have always suspected DE to come from head trauma.

Also...mine has not had another bad head injury since and the DE has remained stable (no worse/better).

Just my $0.02.

Cypher;2690175; said:
The theory of genetics makes more sense to me, as it explains why Asians and Black arowanas seem less prone to DE than silvers.

However Ive had a situation where ive moved my silver (8") from a 75 to a 180 gallon. He became very restless in the bucket during acclimation, bumping into every part of the bucket. By the time i moved him into the 180, the right eye was slightly dropped. Possibly due to head trauma?

So I guess both theories have their own validity.

iLoveHebe;2690266; said:
my uncles HBRTG jumped out when it was 10 inch it banged its eye like 5 times by jumping on the floor 1 side had DE

christ4paul;2656325; said:
when i got my silver aro it was bumping into the tank and going ape sh*t and after a few hours one of his eyes dropped so im with you on the head trauma thing.

headbanger_jib;2579802; said:
my jar has been living in a 180g for almost an year, since he was just 6"+
he got drop eye while he was just 8.5" he had this tendency to bang at the tank walls
used to scare me a lot as i could hear the thud from quite a distance
and one fine day he got DE but he still is a cool fish


ettfettbranamn;2824098; said:
Right this is the deal. I got three aros, and all have de, (on the left side) so I know what de looks like, but I came home today and noticed that my smallest aro 17"ish has a lot more de than she used to have just yesterday.
 
Bderick67;2881693; said:
Very well could be a coincidence. With one of my two silvers it happen twice, to each eye on separate occasions. Never did it happen in 30 minutes but it did happen within hours.

First time the aro was 16" long and had no DE. While transferring to a larger tank the arowana did experience severe head trauma while being caught. Later after in the new tank the DE was apparent in the right eye. A few months later then aro, about 21", freaked out during a tank cleaning. It hit the top corner brace a couple of times very violently. That night before turning the lights out, DE had developed in the left eye.

There have been numerous people that have reported the same. There have been numerous others to report that the DE appeared or worsened almost instantly. Here are a few examples

Perhaps you don't know that temperature fluxtuation was also suspected to be one of the cause for DE, since there were on several occasions, local people, including myself, transported arowana from tank to tank, and it developed DE after that. We suspect temp dropped from tank to tank, or from tank to bag, caused it. However, like most others "theory," it's not fact, so we don't "advertise" it. You was one of the first jumped on me when it brought up a year or two ago :screwy: BTW, half of what you listed was not DE. It's more like anatomy damaged, eye came off socket! I had one Feifeng "supposely" got punked by a 14" datnoid in the past so hard that both of its eye balls popped out and on the tank bottom, and it was dead by the time I found. Would that be considered DE? :popcorn:
 
jlnguyen74;2881801; said:
Perhaps you don't know that temperature fluxtuation was also suspected to be one of the cause for DE, since there were on several occasions, local people, including myself, transported arowana from tank to tank, and it developed DE after that. We suspect temp dropped from tank to tank, or from tank to bag, caused it. However, like most others "theory," it's not fact, so we don't "advertise" it. You was one of the first jumped on me when it brought up a year or two ago :screwy: BTW, half of what you listed was not DE. It's more like anatomy damaged, eye came off socket! I had one Feifeng "supposely" got punked by a 14" datnoid in the past so hard that both of its eye balls popped out and on the tank bottom, and it was dead by the time I found. Would that be considered DE? :popcorn:

See now is this so hard, your actually contributing to the discussion instead of just being an :lipsseale I don't recall ever hearing of the temp flux theory. Though this could've even been true with my aro, but I am pretty strict about keeping the temps close. I realize that a couple of the threads just deal with the DE developing or worsening rapidly, I was just trying to get the point across that it can happen quickly. I do believe all are cases of DE. Notice there are some pretty respectable members quoted there, even Ilovehebe:D and I have added one more at the bottom.

Everything we can draw on regarding DE is based on observations and experiences, though there is no proof. To me having a sticky on the basics would just save for the new "What is DE" threads that show every couple of weeks. Often they turn into flame wars such as this. There are also theories that can and should be quickly shot down, as well with many of the methods of prevention or cures. But really everyone has a right to their own opinion. I will however question that opinion if it doesn't really make sense to me.

I apologize if I jumped on you for your temp theory, as I don't remember doing this, but it is likely I did such.:( Oh...and no I would consider the feifeng as having DE. It is a hardcore proven fact they do not get DE:D

señor_pescados_felices;1678206; said:
Most likely coincidence I know but every time Ive had a silver get drop eye it has started to develop it within a week or two after severely bumping its head on the top.
 
CTU2fan;2869636; said:
Good thread idea. Some thoughts of mine on DE:

It seems strange that while the closely-related jardini and leichardti aro's seem to be equally prone to DE, the closely related silver and black are most and least prone to DE respectively. I know in the past I've seen it theorized that DE is a CB issue; hence the largely farmed silvers get it, the WC blacks do not. But there are WC silvers in the hobby, and they get DE.

Is it true that pond-raised aro's don't get DE, or at least get it rarely compared to tank-raised aro's? If that's so it could well be a simple water-quality issue...but that also brings the "head banging" idea back into it, as the relatively more jumpy silver gets it while the often calmer black does not.

Good points, my thoughts on each. Regarding blacks and silvers, I think it just boils down to the fact that they are different species and whatever is the defect in silvers just does not exist in blacks.

As far as DE being a result of breeding. Silver aros are not sexually mature until they are 2 to 4 years old, reports vary on this info. It doesn't seem logical that a farm would raise fry for two to four years to get mature adults when mature adults are so easily available. Why would you spend time, money, space to grow out when you could spend them producing fry.

It could be that the difference between tank raised and pond raised is that tank raised arowana don't rely on the use of there eyes for food.
In a tank, searching above the waterline is completely eliminated. Arowana are smart, and quickly become familiar with the tank they are in. So it seems that they would eventually loose interest in searching this small area eliminating the need to look down. Now throw in the fact that they get scheduled feeding and are likely never even hungry. One could come to the conclusion that they are lacking in use and exersizing the muscles that move the eye.

In a pond they have a much larger darker area to explore, not to mention they can always be looking above the water line for a passing insect or even for the person that will eventually be providing them with food. Also I would think that in a larger area the arowana would still use it's binocular vision to focus on items. In a small areas their are less items to focus on and the aro may not be able to focus on items outside of the tank.

Though I have experienced the "headbanging cause" twice, it could be that the trauma to the head is a trigger and not really the cause.
 
aria;2885329; said:
Hey guys this is for the people who say that a black arowana with DE has yet to be posted http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCC7_b6qGas here's a video of a guy with one for sale, clearly has DE. Its kind of hard to tell from the video but if you read the comments he posts that it has it.

Sorry man, I watched 5 minutes of that video. That is a nice looking black.

That black aro does NOT have DE.
 
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