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    The Dumbing Down of Seachem

    Discussion in 'General Aquaria Discussion' started by RD., Jan 6, 2019.

    1. RD.

      RD. Crazy Canuck

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      Approx 3 yrs ago Seachem decided that due to customers not being able to add 1+1 and divide by 2, they would simplify their dosage instructions on Seachem Safe. This topic was brought up by @pops@pops , to which I added my 2 cents. https://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/threads/seachem-safe.651005/

      If you read that thread, and the links that I posted in that discussion, you'll understand why I didn't agree of the change, and still don't today. Yesterday while attempting to help someone with a chlorine/chloramine situation I see that Seachem has done the same with Prime. I'm at a loss here, has the general public become so lazy and useless that they can't do a bit of research and calculation on their own? Does nobody see an issue here, but me? Seachem is telling you what you should treat your water with, without knowing anything about your local tap water. To me that seems ludicrous.

      Seachem Prime instructions circa 2004

      DIRECTIONS: Use 1 capful (5 mL) for each 200 L (50 gallons*) of new water. For smaller doses, please note each cap thread is approx. 1 mL). This dose removes approximately 0.6 mg/L ammonia, 3 mg/L chloramine, or 4 mg/L chlorine. May be added to aquarium directly, but better if added to new water first. If adding directly to aquarium, base dose on aquarium volume. Sulfur odor is normal. For exceptionally high chloramine concentrations, a double dose may be used safely. To detoxify nitrite in an emergency, up to 5 times normal dose may be used. If temperature is > 30 °C (86 °F) and chlorine or ammonia levels are low, use a half dose.

      Seachem Safe instructions circa 2004

      Chlorine: use 5 g (1 tsp.*) to each 1625 L (450 gallons*) of tap water (removes 4 ppm).
      Chloramine: use 5 g (1 tsp.*) to each 1250 L (300 gallons*) of tap water (removes 4 ppm).
      Ammonia: use 5 g (1 tsp.*) to each 400 L (100 gallons*) of tap water (removes 4 ppm). Do not overdose!



      Seemed simple enough to me, and I'm not big on math. First one has to find out if they have chlorine or chloramine as a disinfectant, then find out what the max residual is (posted on annual water reports, many are posted online) and then treat accordingly. Better yet, buy a chlorine test kit and test at your taps, and then treat accordingly. If you have chloramine, buy a Seachem ammonia alert sensor to check for free ammonia (NH3) residual. https://www.seachem.com/ammonia-alert.php
      This becomes critical for those that have chloramine treated tap water, and have high pH values out of their tap, as the higher the pH, the more toxic free ammonia becomes.


      But I guess that was too difficult for the masses to figure out, so now the most important thing in this hobby (water quality) is left to a by guess or by golly set of instructions.


      Seachem Prime instructions circa 2019

      https://seachem.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/115000125454-Info-Prime-dosing-instructions

      Use 1 capful (5 mL) for each 200 L (50 US gallons) of new water. For smaller volumes, please note each cap thread is approximately 1 mL. May be added to aquarium directly, but better if added to new water first. If adding directly to aquarium, base dose on aquarium volume. Sulfur odor is normal. For exceptionally high chloramine concentrations, a double dose may be used safely. To detoxify nitrite in an emergency, up to 5 times normal dose may be used. If temperature is > 30 °C (86 °F) and chlorine or ammonia levels are low, use a half dose.


      So I guess Seachem doesn't want to answer any more mathematical equations, or explain how to add 1+1 and divide by 2, so instead of the old ...…. This dose removes approximately 0.6 mg/L ammonia, 3 mg/L chloramine, or 4 mg/L chlorine, it's now become a one size fits all scenario, and if that doesn't work out then by all means double down. If this wasn't such a sad reflection on where todays world is at, I'd laugh. Consumers can figure out how to download & use a Seachem app, but to borrow a line from my dear old dad, they can't find their own ass from a hole in the ground.

      I'm going to guess that the vast majority that read this thread, have no idea what their current disinfectant being used is (chlorine or chloramine) or what the ppm residual is at their taps. For those that do, well done!
       
      Steve_C likes this.
    2. esoxlucius

      esoxlucius Aimara

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      Totally agree. The manufacturers of these products give guidelines only, the rest is up to the hobbyist to research their own water, which incidently, is pretty easy to do.

      I just hope this thread dosen't go the silly route that the last chlorine/chloramine, does it matter blah de blah thread went, where a mod had to step in to warn our sorry argumentative asses.
       
    3. RD.

      RD. Crazy Canuck

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      I think the only real argument left is, are people in this hobby really that stupid? According to the CEO of Seachem, they are.
       
    4. Gourami Swami

      Gourami Swami MFK Moderators
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      [QUOTE="RD., post: 8040795, member: 20045" has the general public become so lazy and useless that they can't do a bit of research and calculation on their own?[/QUOTE]

      The answer to this, is unfortunately, yes.

      I had a customer complain to me about this very issue recently, but they were on the other side of the fence. They thought it was stupid that seachem only lists how much to dose for 50 gallons; since their tank was only 10 gallons.

      The problem is that most people who use this product are not even hobbyists. These are the people that give me death glares when I tell them that they can't keep comets in a 5 gallon. The same people who "have been keeping fish for 20 years" but think that they only live a few months, and should just be replaced when they die (god forbid they clean the tank or do any maintenance).

      You make great points, but your audience here at MFK, and Seachem's audience with the millions that shop at Petco etc. worldwide, are vastly different. Most people expect dosing for products like this on the bottle, with no math (no matter how simple) required
       
    5. RD.

      RD. Crazy Canuck

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      I also see that my post below from 3 yrs ago no longer applies. Seachem has removed the detailed info as well. Too complicated for the masses I guess?

      "And due to my discussion with Greg, they later came up with some new instructions on the Safe FAQ. See link below. Q: How can I calculate how much Safe™ to use if I know exactly how much chlorine, chloramine or ammonia is present in my water?"

      She gone …...
       
    6. FreshyFresh

      FreshyFresh Piranha

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      I don't disagree.

      I suppose it's a mix of being able to sell more product and recommending a "safe" dosage that even a beginner can't mess up.

      At the end of the day, the level of disinfectant that comes out of each of our taps is going to vary to a degree. Pretty sure I don't have the means to test for that.
       
    7. esoxlucius

      esoxlucius Aimara

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      How does this play out for manufacturers though? I mean, if every hobbyist researched their water and, no doubt, as I was able to do, can considerably lower their dosage levels, then the manufacturers bottom line, on prime, or whatever you're using, goes south.

      Nowhere on the bottle does it say anything in bold letters or coloured print or capitals or anything that would stand out that us, the consumer, must satisfy ourselves that the levels they recommend are in line with our own regional water readings? They just give a blanket, one dosage fits all dosage level.
       
    8. RD.

      RD. Crazy Canuck

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      Freshy - Everyone has the means to test their tap water. Buy a chlorine test kit.

      Some yes, but many MFKers seem to be just as confused regarding this subject, even experienced MFKers. I posted the following thread 9 years ago, due to the mass confusion regarding "how much Prime" do I add? It was later made a sticky.
      https://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/threads/cost-effective-water-conditioners.309623/

      IME - 1 capful per 50 gallons has been the constant chant from the masses for the past 20 years or so. I have read this hundreds of times over the years, with those offering the advice typically not having the foggiest idea about the OP's water.
       
    9. Lilyann

      Lilyann Dovii

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      The answer to this, is unfortunately, yes.

      I had a customer complain to me about this very issue recently, but they were on the other side of the fence. They thought it was stupid that seachem only lists how much to dose for 50 gallons; since their tank was only 10 gallons.

      The problem is that most people who use this product are not even hobbyists. These are the people that give me death glares when I tell them that they can't keep comets in a 5 gallon. The same people who "have been keeping fish for 20 years" but think that they only live a few months, and should just be replaced when they die (god forbid they clean the tank or do any maintenance).

      You make great points, but your audience here at MFK, and Seachem's audience with the millions that shop at Petco etc. worldwide, are vastly different. Most people expect dosing for products like this on the bottle, with no math (no matter how simple) required[/QUOTE]


      As far as reading a water report and interpreting it- yes, I am that stupid.
       
    10. RD.

      RD. Crazy Canuck

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      Most water quality reports will list the disinfectant being used chlorine/chloramine, and a low-high range, and an average. For anyone that can't understand that a phone call should get you the info that you need to start the calculation for "how much" water treatment do I need.
       

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