The Erythristic Gar Conundrum...

[fwprawn]

Hi,
A couple things - what is the point that we are missing? I keep re-reading your original post, and am not sure what we missed.
Now to the fish - how can you be sure they are not eating shrimp? There is an invasive bright red shrimp there that fish are feeding on. How can you be sure that this is genetic?
I'm from a similar background as you, so I am genuinely curious how you came to these conclusions.

 

[E_americanus]

sol, curiouse as to weather on not the wild specimins you caught may have been in areas with high amounts of crayfish in their diets? you can get similar red boosts ime from crayfish as other shellfish.. and I def wouldn't put it past gar to take crayfish, or prefer them if abundent to other foods. all my gar change patterns and coloration extreamely easy... I would be extreamely skeptical of any "odd" colored gar. haveing seen what can be done to arrowana under the right lights,backgrounds,foods, ect... no doubt gar can be similarly "shown" in better ways. and seeing how many of these odd gars turn into reg colors over time or just "vanish" Ive seen this intense red in other NA natives, particularly species prone to eating crayfish and other inverts.

Deffinately interesting.. but no way would I pay $$$ unless I saw genetics confirming the gene.

I'm also assueming in your data collecting you found nothing abnormal.

hi Amy,

i will comment further on this in my response to jude/prawn, but you are right to suspect crayfish (thought i had mentioned this in an earlier post); SPGs will definitely take crayfish and we have seen them before in gut analysis...not nearly as much here in the north as what they find down in the south (where crayfish are also much more abundant in the same habitats).
i also agree that many color patterns are highly variable...they are even with the more "solid" genetic morphs as we see xanthic fish that switch back, melanism that shows during only spawning, or even transitions between the two patterns during spawning/seasonal periods. i think a lot of the patterns we see are tied to a myriad of factors...stress, environment, diet, genetics, ontogeny, maturity, etc.

other than getting some discussion going, which has been great, i guess the other point i was getting at was that i don't consider anything we have seen to date to be a true erythristic gar. to those who want to pay for the oddballs (as i have said in the past), to each their own!--
--solomon

 

[fwprawn]

Solomon - you bring up something I hadn't thought about - I know that breeding Alligator Gars often develop bright red bellies - do you know if these red-dish gars are in breeding dress, possibly?

 

[E_americanus]

Hi,
A couple things - what is the point that we are missing? I keep re-reading your original post, and am not sure what we missed.
Now to the fish - how can you be sure they are not eating shrimp? There is an invasive bright red shrimp there that fish are feeding on. How can you be sure that this is genetic?
I'm from a similar background as you, so I am genuinely curious how you came to these conclusions.

hi Jude - please see my above response to Amy as the diet item and "main point" issues are discussed there too.

1 - the point was that i don't think any of the fishes are true erythristics, and i wanted to see what others thought and get discussion going. those were the main points.

2 - i'm sure they are not eating shrimp because we looked at the diets of these fishes...and there are no shrimp in these habitats. there are crayfish in some, but they don't often overlap with the habitats where we find the gars (unlike in the south, there there is considerable overlap). those main points and i'm sure other analytical details i am forgetting to list are why i'm confident they are not eating shrimp (keep in mind our main focus was the MI population...they are inland, so we aren't dealing with any mysids or hemimysis, etc...not all MI fishes are directly connected with the Great Lakes).

3 - as per comments in my response to Amy, i strongly believe there is a high degree of genetic influence but also environmental...this has been directly observed when we take fish out of those environments and the patterns fade...this can also be enhanced or faded to some degree even in individuals where there is a stronger genetic component. again, it's a combination of several factors.

hopefully that gets at why we came to these conclusions, but since you are of similar background, i'd be happy to discuss things in greater detail provided you have more specific questions. i'm curious as to your similar background as well in case you'd like to share--
--solomon

 

[E_americanus]

Solomon - you bring up something I hadn't thought about - I know that breeding Alligator Gars often develop bright red bellies - do you know if these red-dish gars are in breeding dress, possibly?

not sure where you are getting the ALG info, but in working with several people who work with the species, that has not been described as a general trend. as for SPG, we sampled during spawning and non-spawning periods, so yes, at times it can definitely be spawning patterns, but at others they are very likely population-level differences--
--solomon

 

[fwprawn]

Hi there - we were both typing at the same time I see! See my previous post also - what do you think about it being breeding dress ? Have you tried keeping one in captivity for a while to see if the coloration remains the same, or "goes away?"
I've studied fish behavior - primarily Cichlid parental adoptive behavior, and nonverbal (obviously) communication, for a couple of decades. In other words, basically I was saying that my fish passion goes deeper than just keeping fish.

 

[fwprawn]

Recently, somebody on here posted an ALG that had been killed, that had a crimson red underside that certainly looked like breeding dress. It wasn't localized enough to be bloodstains - but if you are not aware of breeding dress in ALG's , then that may have been the case. Many of the photos on Google of mature ALG's taken also show reddish tint along the underside. I know this is pretty unscientific, but hey...

 

[coyotethug]

First, shouldn't red gars be described as hypererythristic? If red coloration exists at some point in wild types then an extreme variant would be a hyper- morphology.

Secondly, any long term captive research been done to see if color remains over time?

Thirdly, any breeding programs show direct transmission of trait to offspring? I would be willing to grow out fry if anyone wants to ship them to me. We need controlled growout with different feeding regimes.

I love you this real discussion in this forum. I am a PhD zoology student and I think we miss out on a lot of opportunity to do real research in this hobby. We come into contact with a lot of more than many of the scientists, we should take it upon ourselves to do some of this preliminary research.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using MonsterAquariaNetwork App

 

[MonsterMinis]

Another thought.. since these fish are from over-seas breeders.. and they use hormones alot in breeding if my understanding is accurate... could these fish simply be exposed to hormones as suggested and put into a "breeding dress" ect if immature? I've seen Oscars from petco iir that where extreamly small but had amazing coloration, doing abit of digging it was due to exposure to certain chemicals/not sure if its from feed or actual water additives... but its done to make these fish more attractive? It would last a few days/weeks, long enough to sell the fish. is it possible something like this is coming into play? I have no clue how repuitable ect these breeders are ect so no intention to insult ect.. just wondering if this is plausable.

 

[Madding]

My experiences with wild caught floridas sold as 'red morph' gar has always led to eventual color shift to normal pattern after being in the aquarium for a while.