The Festae Sexing Methods thread...

[David R]

Right, there's been so many threads about sexing young festae I thought I'd make one to discus the various methods and their reliability, then hopefully be able to compile a bit of a guide. Post your experiences on the various clues that can give an indication of sex in subadult fish, with pics if you have them.

I've got a group of 8 that I am growing out, got them at about 3cm and the largest is now about 12cm, so far I think I have one female and 7 males. I have separated the female and I'm growing her out in a different tank. The following is based on my observations of them.

Blue Speckles in fins/body. My 'female' certainly has less (almost no) blue speckles in her fins and body in comparison to the larger dominant males. How ever I do have another 'male' with very few speckles in the fins, about the same level as the 'female'.

Black dorsal fin. My female has this, but so do some of the less dominant males. Not a great indicator IMO.

Behaviour/body colour. When she was in the tank with the males, my 'female' seemed to be less shy than the males (who spend most of the time lurking in caves/pits they have dug) and less scrappy with the males (who are constantly bickering). She also exhibited a more redish-orange body colour, even though not mature and/or breeding. The 'males' all seem to have a darker colour to them, and appear to be more territorial and aggressive towards each other.

Y shaped bars. I haven't done enough observation with my group to see if there is any sort of pattern, but from what I have read its not a very good indicator.

Venting. I've never tried this with any fish, and don't plan on doing it with these guys. Maybe someone who has can comment.

What esle is there? Obviously the best method is the "wait and see" method", but I think its worth while discussing the various things that can help sex a young fish.

 

[balton777]

Right, there's been so many threads about sexing young festae I thought I'd make one to discus the various methods and their reliability, then hopefully be able to compile a bit of a guide. Post your experiences on the various clues that can give an indication of sex in subadult fish, with pics if you have them.

I've got a group of 8 that I am growing out, got them at about 3cm and the largest is now about 12cm, so far I think I have one female and 7 males. I have separated the female and I'm growing her out in a different tank. The following is based on my observations of them.

At less than 4", I've come to believe you have to vent, guess, or wait and see. By 5" you start to be able to tell but sometimes even then they keep you guessing. There's always exceptions to the rule though, every now and then, it's sex is blantantly obvious.

Blue Speckles in fins/body. My 'female' certainly has less (almost no) blue speckles in her fins and body in comparison to the larger dominant males. How ever I do have another 'male' with very few speckles in the fins, about the same level as the 'female'.

Body spangles mean nothing. Other than venting though, the spangle method may be the second most reliable way to try and sex. Alot of you have seen this pic before of my 2.5" female Festae. Females have spots at the rear edge of the dorsal fin whereas males have spangling throughout. But this method is definitely far from foolproof.



Black dorsal fin. My female has this, but so do some of the less dominant males. Not a great indicator IMO.

Not a reliable method.

Behaviour/body colour. When she was in the tank with the males, my 'female' seemed to be less shy than the males (who spend most of the time lurking in caves/pits they have dug) and less scrappy with the males (who are constantly bickering). She also exhibited a more redish-orange body colour, even though not mature and/or breeding. The 'males' all seem to have a darker colour to them, and appear to be more territorial and aggressive towards each other.

Also not reliable. Out of my batch of six 1.5-2"ers, it was a female who was the most dominant and killed all the other five.

Coloration-only the dominant female will color up and the others stay rather bland to show thier respect.
Aggression-Not a good method either. Out of six F1's I got from Rapps, it was a female who was most aggressive and killed the other five.

Y shaped bars. I haven't done enough observation with my group to see if there is any sort of pattern, but from what I have read its not a very good indicator.

Not a good indicator.

Venting. I've never tried this with any fish, and don't plan on doing it with these guys. Maybe someone who has can comment.

Why don't you plan on doing it? It's the best method. It's easy, just flip the fish over and look at it's vent. Females look like a circle with a 'U' below and male look like a circle with a 'V' below.

This picture is from:
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/images/graphics/ventingfish2.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.everything-aquatic.com/2009/02/sexingventing-cichlids.html&h=470&w=401&sz=68&tbnid=zCM5p4jxtrzKyM:&tbnh=129&tbnw=110&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dventing%2Bcichlids&zoom=1&hl=en&usg=__5fZPFFE6tZvYkzM9a49pda8A6e0=&sa=X&ei=2zp4TLLIPMP_lgeY4PnrCw&ved=0CCsQ9QEwAw

View attachment 525811


What esle is there? Obviously the best method is the "wait and see" method", but I think its worth while discussing the various things that can help sex a young fish.

See comments in RED above ^^^.

Anyone else?

 

[Modest_Man]

Under 5" flip a coin, you've got a 50% shot.

 

[David R]

Females have spots at the rear edge of the dorsal fin whereas males have spangling throughout

Why don't you plan on doing it? It's the best method. It's easy, just flip the fish over and look at it's vent. Females look like a circle with a 'U' below and male look like a circle with a 'V' below.

Thanks, I realise that under a certain size its nothing but slightly-educated guessing, but still worth discussing IMO.

I'll have a good look at my lot tonight to see if I can pick up on the spots at the rear edge of the dorsal fin. I don't plan on venting them as I don't want to have to pull all the rocks out of the tank and go through the stress of catching them all just to have a look. When the time comes to move them to the 5' I'll try then if I'm still unsure. Will be interesting to see how accurate my guess of 7:1 turns out to be.

 

[Cich wit it]

http://bigguapote2.tripod.com/articlefestaesex.html
This is a pretty good page on sexing Festae.

 

[balton777]

Thanks, I realise that under a certain size its nothing but slightly-educated guessing, but still worth discussing IMO.

I'll have a good look at my lot tonight to see if I can pick up on the spots at the rear edge of the dorsal fin. I don't plan on venting them as I don't want to have to pull all the rocks out of the tank and go through the stress of catching them all just to have a look. When the time comes to move them to the 5' I'll try then if I'm still unsure. Will be interesting to see how accurate my guess of 7:1 turns out to be.

I agree it's worth dicussing, it's something that's interested me for some time. In my years of trying to figure them out, what I've learned is that different popluations of Festae have different traits and that maybe there is no set rule to sexing them. They can be frustrating sometimes. When you check out your Festae's fins, they may not exibit the spots at all. They don't all have them.


[QUOTE="Cich" wit it;442151;4]http://bigguapote2.tripod.com/articlefestaesex.html
This is a pretty good page on sexing Festae.[/QUOTE]

"Cich", I'm curious how long ago this article was written. This statement, "This photo originally confused me greatly, as up until the other day i would have said it was a male, because of the blue spots, but then it also had the black dorsal. So i asked a very knowledgeable Jeff Rapps about it, and he told me some in populations of festae, the female can also obtain the blue spangling, but never will a male get a Black dorsal. therefore this has to be a female, this is also enforced by the bright orange colour which would be unusual for a male Festae.", regarding this picture

is one I have to disagree with. He claims Jeff says it's female due to a black dorsal fin. I've personally seen males with a black dorsal but never a female with that much spangling in the fins. Not saying they don't exist, I just want more proof. Does anyone know who owns this fish? As much as I respect Jeff, I think either (A) he didn't put enough thought into his response. (B) He didn't make that statement. Or (C) He hasn't reseached this subject as much as I have. Personally I think it's option B. I'm going with the opinion that this is male displaying breeding colors due to body shape and spangling. Everything about this fish points to it being male.

 

[Cich wit it]

"Cich", I'm curious how long ago this article was written.

Im really not sure. I just googled it and it popped up. I believed the same on that particular specimen. It looks like a male to me but when he stated jeffs claim i wasnt to sure again. lol.

 

[balton777]

ok thanks.

 

[Gruff Master]

I agree it's worth dicussing, it's something that's interested me for some time. In my years of trying to figure them out, what I've learned is that different popluations of Festae have different traits and that maybe there is no set rule to sexing them. They can be frustrating sometimes. When you check out your Festae's fins, they may not exibit the spots at all. They don't all have them.




"Cich", I'm curious how long ago this article was written. This statement, "This photo originally confused me greatly, as up until the other day i would have said it was a male, because of the blue spots, but then it also had the black dorsal. So i asked a very knowledgeable Jeff Rapps about it, and he told me some in populations of festae, the female can also obtain the blue spangling, but never will a male get a Black dorsal. therefore this has to be a female, this is also enforced by the bright orange colour which would be unusual for a male Festae.", regarding this picture
View attachment 526134
is one I have to disagree with. He claims Jeff says it's female due to a black dorsal fin. I've personally seen males with a black dorsal but never a female with that much spangling in the fins. Not saying they don't exist, I just want more proof. Does anyone know who owns this fish? As much as I respect Jeff, I think either (A) he didn't put enough thought into his response. (B) He didn't make that statement. Or (C) He hasn't reseached this subject as much as I have. Personally I think it's option B. I'm going with the opinion that this is male displaying breeding colors due to body shape and spangling. Everything about this fish points to it being male.

Bomillyiam posted this picture in an older thread similar to this one. It was from a geocites link that I could never get to come up. He never says if this particular Festae is his or not. I do know that he breeds Festae and has been for some time now. My experience with Festae lasted a little over a year. In that time I was constantly fooled by the sexes until they reached 5". The abundance of blue spots in the finnage was my clue to one being a male. The breeding colors of the females and the lack of blue spots told me that they were females, still with much uncertainty. The biggest clue however was the dropped egg tubes of the females! Again my experience with Festae was brief, so it took me a lot longer than the pros to sex mine. It truly was an ever-changing guessing game until they reached the 5" mark. Festae are the hardest cichlids for me to sex.

 

[David R]

Well, good news, I spend a considerable length of time examining mine last night. They're still really shy so I have to throw food in then sit at the other end of the room watching them eat. A couple have changed considerably since I last paid them any real attention and now one that I thought was a big male is starting to look really girld. Much brighter red fins with a little spangling on the back of the dorsal, nothing in the tail, and black at the front of the dorsal. Possibly at least one more submissive female. I guess the time-will-tell method is still by far the best!