This deserves another journal...My 190g Wild Discus build!

[DaveB]

Yeah the main issue is that this is a rental house. So everything I do can't be permanent. If this were my place, I'd drill through the walls. Right on the other side of the tank is a bathroom sink. So if I owned this place, I'd drill through the wall and tap into the sink's drain to dump the water. That would be the ideal setup. It's a little hard to explain how I have it all routed, so I'll get some new pics up showing the setup.

Well, you've shown us all that you're really damn handy... why not just drill and then patch later? Drywall patching is easy, and if it's a plaster house like so many in CA, it's tougher to drill but can still be repaired.

As for RO waste water, I don't think it would be higher in TDS than the tap, since a lot of stuff actually get's caught by the membrane. My system has a flush valve, that when I open it, I can flush off the face of the membrane with high pressure water. While flushing, I'm sure this waste water would have a higher concentration of TDS. I was reading on the NADA site that discus fry actually need a good level of TDS to develop, hence using waste water over pure RO water is preferred.

Good point about most of the solids being caught in the filter, not broken out and left to float somewhere (ie, in the waste). But still... if it's taking 100% of the solids out, in theory that should mean there's no need for waste water, shouldn't it?

Oh, OK, so it's not pure RO that comes out, but still the same as tap, is what you're saying? That seems plausible.

Any way you can test your hardness and solids to compare waste to tap?

My assumption all along has been that to get the perfect solid-free water you end up adding some of what gets removed to the waste... making that waste thus harder than tap. Which is perfect for the fry (and for Africans, I'd imagine).

(I also think it'd be perfect for showers. My in-laws have a whole-house softener and it feels like it takes an hour to scrub off all the lather. I hate it. Soften everything else but recycle the waste for showers so they don't take forever.)

 

[aclockworkorange]

Gotcha on the RO stuff... I think it can only benefit them, hard to tell from your pictures but I'm sure they are already looking more colorful. They are all from snookn, right?
I agree you should put on a UV. You've already gone this far.
Not saying it's necessary or anything, but neither is a 190 gallon tank with a 3D background with custom LEDs and a fancy sump and full RO drip system...

 

[jcardona1]

Well, you've shown us all that you're really damn handy... why not just drill and then patch later? Drywall patching is easy, and if it's a plaster house like so many in CA, it's tougher to drill but can still be repaired.

Good point about most of the solids being caught in the filter, not broken out and left to float somewhere (ie, in the waste). But still... if it's taking 100% of the solids out, in theory that should mean there's no need for waste water, shouldn't it?

Oh, OK, so it's not pure RO that comes out, but still the same as tap, is what you're saying? That seems plausible.

Any way you can test your hardness and solids to compare waste to tap?

My assumption all along has been that to get the perfect solid-free water you end up adding some of what gets removed to the waste... making that waste thus harder than tap. Which is perfect for the fry (and for Africans, I'd imagine).

(I also think it'd be perfect for showers. My in-laws have a whole-house softener and it feels like it takes an hour to scrub off all the lather. I hate it. Soften everything else but recycle the waste for showers so they don't take forever.)

Well not 100% of the solids, but pretty close. The RO output is about 1-4ppm TDS. The DI filter is what gets it down to 0ppm. I think the waste water is because of the semi-permeable membrane that is in the RO filter. It's not like a regular micron filter where all the water passes through. Because the pores in the membrane are so fine, not all of the water coming in the filter will make it through, and needs to get rejected back out, hence the waste water. RO membranes need a minimum of 40-50psi to work properly. The lower the psi, the more waste you get. With a higher pressure in your water lines, more water is forced through the membrane giving you a higher ratio of pure to waste water.

My unit is rated at 75gpd (3.12gph) at 65psi and 77 degrees water temp. My pressure before the membrane is about 40-45psi, hence my slightly lower output. I test filled a 5g bucket and it took exactly two hours to fill. So my effective output rate is 60gpd or 2.5gph. I talked to thefilterguys and they said most folks will realize about 50gpd on the 75gpd units because of psi and water temp. Colder temps and lower psi will lead to less pure water and more waste water. I can get more output by running a long coil of tap water tubing through a 5g bucket of water with an aquarium heater. As for psi, only way to fix this is with a booster pump, but these things cost more than the RO/DI unit itself!

Yes, the waste water is essentially tapwater that has no chlorine/chloramines and slightly cleaner because of the 5 micron sediment filter. My TDS meter should be here next week, so I'll go ahead and compare the GH/TDS of tapwater and waste water for you.

As for water softeners, I hate them too! My inlaws have one as well, and I hate staying the night at their place. Taking a shower is the worst thing ever. I feel so slimy haha. Water softeners don't actually 'soften' the water per say. They work on the principle of ion exchange. They exchange the magnesium and calcium ions (what determines your GH, or hardness), and replace them with sodium ions (which is why they need salt to work). This is why water softeners are a bad idea for fish tanks, since you're stripping out the essential magnesium and calcium ions. In fact, if you took a TDS reading before and after a water softener, you may even find that TDS is higher, since nothing is really being 'filtered' out. A GH test would be different though, since GH is magnesium and calcium. You'll find the GH reading after would be lower since these were exchanged by the system for sodium. This is where a TDS test will give you the truer answer.

Gotcha on the RO stuff... I think it can only benefit them, hard to tell from your pictures but I'm sure they are already looking more colorful. They are all from snookn, right?
I agree you should put on a UV. You've already gone this far.
Not saying it's necessary or anything, but neither is a 190 gallon tank with a 3D background with custom LEDs and a fancy sump and full RO drip system...

Yeah, guess I shouldn't say I'll never use on a tank, because look what happened here. Never say never

 

[aclockworkorange]

Yeah, guess I shouldn't say I'll never use on a tank, because look what happened here. Never say never

 

[williemcd]

You've a PhD in tank/stand/lighting setups! Bill

 

[DaveB]

Well not 100% of the solids, but pretty close. The RO output is about 1-4ppm TDS. The DI filter is what gets it down to 0ppm. I think the waste water is because of the semi-permeable membrane that is in the RO filter. It's not like a regular micron filter where all the water passes through. Because the pores in the membrane are so fine, not all of the water coming in the filter will make it through, and needs to get rejected back out, hence the waste water. RO membranes need a minimum of 40-50psi to work properly. The lower the psi, the more waste you get. With a higher pressure in your water lines, more water is forced through the membrane giving you a higher ratio of pure to waste water.

Oh, OK. My understanding of the way these worked was way off. Evidence:

My unit is rated at 75gpd (3.12gph) at 65psi and 77 degrees water temp. My pressure before the membrane is about 40-45psi, hence my slightly lower output. I test filled a 5g bucket and it took exactly two hours to fill. So my effective output rate is 60gpd or 2.5gph. I talked to thefilterguys and they said most folks will realize about 50gpd on the 75gpd units because of psi and water temp. Colder temps and lower psi will lead to less pure water and more waste water.

Interesting. I had always thought that you needed a pressure regulator because you needed to throttle these way down, that it had to be slow in order for them to do their jobs. (Of course, even if you don't use a regulator, a drip emitter is going to back things up anyway.)

I also always thought that the water was supposed to be cold and that hot was bad.

Why does temperature matter? More (or less) molecule movement affects how things pass through the membrane?

I can get more output by running a long coil of tap water tubing through a 5g bucket of water with an aquarium heater. As for psi, only way to fix this is with a booster pump, but these things cost more than the RO/DI unit itself!

I think I have some serious pressure here. Though I won't know til I measure it. Heating a coil of the water, though... that's an interesting concept. Perhaps there's a way to use a coil of hot water from the water heater to heat a coil of cold water en route to the RO unit. I do have bulkheads in my water heater for that exact purpose...

My TDS meter should be here next week, so I'll go ahead and compare the GH/TDS of tapwater and waste water for you.

Thanks. I'm very interested in seeing that. Since I'll have gravity on my side with two tanks that I want to drip into, I could end up getting a massive amount of water changed per day without actually using any more than I would've to just run RO on the one tank.

 

[jcardona1]

in red

Oh, OK. My understanding of the way these worked was way off. Evidence:

Interesting. I had always thought that you needed a pressure regulator because you needed to throttle these way down, that it had to be slow in order for them to do their jobs. (Of course, even if you don't use a regulator, a drip emitter is going to back things up anyway.)

Yeah you actually need a decent amount of pressure for the water to pass through the RO membrane. Filterguys recommends at least 65psi. I spent some time on a few reef forums today and lots of guys highly recommend the booster pump, and they say 80-90psi is best for an RO unit. They say not only do you produce RO water faster, but it's also more efficient since you are wasting less water. So it's a win/win. But that's another $150 expense. Maybe in a month or so I'll look into it.

I also always thought that the water was supposed to be cold and that hot was bad.

There's a sweet spot for temp, and from what I've read, it seem to be about 70-80 degrees, which an single aquarium heater in a 5g bucket should handle just fine. Anything over 100 degrees will destroy the membrane.

Why does temperature matter? More (or less) molecule movement affects how things pass through the membrane?

That I'm not sure. I think it may have to do with the density of water at colder and warmer temperatures.

I think I have some serious pressure here. Though I won't know til I measure it. Heating a coil of the water, though... that's an interesting concept. Perhaps there's a way to use a coil of hot water from the water heater to heat a coil of cold water en route to the RO unit. I do have bulkheads in my water heater for that exact purpose...

Lowes has a neat little water pressure gauge. Just screw it over your garden hose or laundry hookup and you'll get your pressure reading. I bought this one for about $10, good to have on hand. My normal water pressure is about 65psi, but when I hooked up the unit and it's producing pure water, it maintains a pressure of about 40-45psi.

Thanks. I'm very interested in seeing that. Since I'll have gravity on my side with two tanks that I want to drip into, I could end up getting a massive amount of water changed per day without actually using any more than I would've to just run RO on the one tank.

Sure thing. I also recommend getting a digital handheld TDS meter, since that's what will really determine your results. You could easily test your tap and tank instantly. The TDS out of my tap is actually pretty low compared to what I've seen other people get. I'm hovering around 100ppm, many other folks mention 300-600ppm! I bought the Hanna Primo brand on eBay. Lots of good reviews on it, and you can get them for less than $20 shipped.

 

[Cleanbio]

Usually I don't like people's in tank decor, but I love your decor! Stellar job.

 

[aclockworkorange]

Can we start a poll? What crazy thing should jcardona do next to his 190?

 

[DaveB]

Can we start a poll? What crazy thing should jcardona do next to his 190?

I won't be satisfied until it talks.