This has been on my mind

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Does egg production/spawning stunt growth? Not that I've ever seen. There would have to be other factors, whether health, nutrition, water quality, etc.

Does egg production/spawning slow growth? In my personal experience, not so much, perhaps somewhat with some fish more than others, but as an end result of eventual size of the fish, not really-- just my experience. Is it possible to start some breeding at such a young age and keep them so unnaturally busy breeding that it can affect their growth to an unnatural extent? I'd say yes, but this doesn't mean breeding automatically or inevitably inhibits a female's growth.

But this is not as simple as the comments I've seen in most discussions on it. In fact, it's not simple at all. Lets start with the fact that there have been at least a few studies done on the effects of gender segregation on growth, with results differing between species. Some species yes (in some studies significantly), some species no. I have no idea how many studies have ever been done in total or on how many species, so I'm just reporting that I've done some reading on this and that I've seen differing conclusions with different fish. So part of the answer would seem to be this can vary between species. Consider just one (simplistic) reason why this could be true. It should be obvious that the energy costs of reproduction differ between species with differing reproduction and parental care strategies. This isn't the only factor, as the biology of different species differs in other ways.

However, let me point out that in nature there would not normally be such long term gender segregation as to virtually eliminate breeding opportunities. So you might consider whether a breeding female allowed a natural breeding cycle would actually reach their natural size at maturity and one that is not allowed to breed and gets larger is actually anomalously large. In other words, which one is normal and which one isn't?

Other factors I rarely, if ever, see mentioned-- Females of most species will begin producing eggs when their species and individual biology and other cues, including available food, water temperature, photo periods, etc. tell them to. In other words, whether you have them paired up and breeding or not they're producing eggs or, in the case of some hobbyists, are spawning unnoticed by their owner. Otherwise they may be scattering the eggs to be eaten by tankmates, reabsorbing the eggs, or whatever the particular strategy of the species and behavior of the individual dictates. In other words, most fish are producing eggs anyway. It's not as simple as if you're breeding them they're using up energy to produce eggs and if you're not breeding them they're not using energy to produce eggs. Obviously, what happens after that-- egg scatterer, substrate layer, mouthbrooder, strip or let hold, etc. etc. etc. are all variables.

Egg production in many species is relative to available nutrition. Studies have been done on some species and say they regulate egg production to balance with growth, dependent on available food energy. Plenty of food energy available-- plenty of eggs without disrupting growth, not enough food energy available-- lower egg production as nature attempts to balance the need for reproduction with individual survival and environmental conditions.

Interaction and relationship of growth hormones with egg production. This gets technical, and I'm not claiming a high level of expertise here-- again, just something I've done some reading on-- but there are a lot of endocrine system things going on (and, again, studies on this) that affect growth, egg production, etc. In other words, all else being equal, it might be as simple as egg production subtracts energy available for growth by a simple, one to one ratio, but all else is not equal and the complexities of hormone production and the endocrine system come into it.

Whether-- or the extent to which-- the fish in a particular breeding setup are breeding on a similar cycle as they would naturally in the wild or are breeding more (or less) often due to various artificial factors.

Females of some species are naturally smaller than males, other species similar size as males, other species females are larger or chunkier than males. At least ime, this holds true in an aquarium, meaning females needn't be growth disadvantaged compared to nature, just because they're reproducing. In some setups, sure, they may well be or maybe some species are more susceptible to this than others, but it's not a given ime.

This is not to mention variables in the things I sometimes do see mentioned-- feed and nutrition, tank size, stocking densities, tankmates, environmental factors (water parameters and mineral/nutrient content, temperature, photo periods, whether your feeding regimen allows females to stock up energy stores as they would in the wild, whether you or your setup allows females a rest period similar to what they'd get naturally, etc. etc. etc.

Bottom line is this is not as simple as some people think and it's no wonder you can see different opinions on it, because there are a lot of variables, including species and your own particular fishkeeping methods. It's really no wonder at all that you'd get differing observations on this.

My conclusion-- or my opinion if you wish-- is there are simply too many variables and complexities to take what you see in your fish room with your particular fish and all the potential variables of care, feeding, and biology and extrapolate an authoritative rule or natural law from it.
 
The whole breeding process seems to really wear them down. I've not only witnessed slower growth in females, but also shortened lifespans if you let them breed constantly and don't give them a break to recondition and build their energy back up.
I definitely buy that. Would say the same for overfeeding, some of the conceptions of 'power' feeding, hormones, unnaturally high protein, etc. in an attempt to maximize fry production. Such factors in themselves can be detrimental to growth, lifespan, etc., quite apart from breeding regime. It can be taken so far as to amount to small scale factory farming in my opinion, with similar effects on the fish in question.

But, again, it's one reason (of several possible) why different people could have differing observations on this.
 
Fish in the wild tend to spawn once a season, so any studies done on fish spawning in the wild is irrelevant to breeding them in aquariums, where some species will spawn every two weeks repeating ad infinitum.

Here's the first paragraph of a journal article on triploid trout growth-

Early sexual maturation is one of the major problems in the commercial grow out of rainbow trout Oncorhynchus mykiss(Bye and Lincoln 1986; Purdom 1986). Both male and female rainbow trout commence gonadal development well before they reach marketable size (500 g). Sexual maturation in most fish species, including the rainbow trout, is accompanied by a significant reduction in somatic growth as energy resources are diverted to meet the costs of developing gonads and secondary sexual characteristics and of reproductive behavior. Declines in flesh quality and appearance that accompany sexual maturation in rainbow trout also decrease their market value.

I'd post more but I've got to head to work.
 
Fish in the wild tend to spawn once a season.
But not necessarily a single spawn. Again, depends on the particular fish. Some fish, as observed in the wild, have a reproductive season each year, during which they can spawn numerous times, some fish as often as every two or three days. Other fish spawn throughout the year, according to conditions. Within a single species, spawning frequency in the wild can vary by location, water temperature, etc. With some fish this has been fairly well studied and others studied very little.
 
Very good read(even the links given). I think its just safe to say that those that have experienced a "serious" stunting or stopping of growth, have not kept the environment optimal for the cichlid being housed OR they have an older stunted pair. All females bodies "produce" eggs... They just choose whether or not if they will lay the eggs. So I don't really understand how that plays a part in the stunting? I believe most of the energy used(energy that would actually hurt a fishes growth) is after the eggs are layed. So if one is that worried about their female not growing from spawning, you can help the pair by removing the eggs and raising them yourself. Now I know we(mammals) and fish are different but think about the runt in a litter of dogs or whatever. The only reason it is smaller(at the moment) is because of the lack of food, but one can't say it will be the smallest adult out of the litter. I feel that if one feeds and properly takes care of what they have... There WILL be slower growth during spawning but you can get that growth back right after the spawn if you take the time and effort to get her or the pair back up to great health. With that being said, the growth of spawning fish within the first year will be noticeable vs an older fish since we know the first year of the fishes life will have the fastest growth. So if one bought a pair from someone and didn't know the age of them, how could one expect to visually see growth? Say someone buys a pair from their lfs(not knowing they are a 3 year old stunted pair) and continues to breed them... At 3 years old they can still grow BUT at a very slow rate and only if housed right. It all boils down to the genetics(max size of the fish) and proper care. I just wanted to toss in my two cents even though this topic will never have a certain answer for everyone to agree with...
 
I was wondering how often wild specimens breed. Once a season seems like a lot less frequent than most of us that keep them in aquariums. That totally changes my perspective on potential taking WAY longer than necessary if bred continuously on a constant basis.
 
I was wondering how often wild specimens breed. Once a season seems like a lot less frequent than most of us that keep them in aquariums. That totally changes my perspective on potential taking WAY longer than necessary if breed continuously.

Agreed. Another thing that comes to mind is does a female always breed her first season once she has reached the minimum age and size to breed or does she wait and grow larger in size?


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Just for the record, no one is stating that constant breeding STUNTS female fish, or STOPS growth ...... what we have said is that constant breeding starting at early age tends to SLOW growth, vs females that are not constantly breeding.

Certainly there are dozens of variables that one can factor into the equation - but I took this as a general question about CA/SA cichlids by the OP, and answered it in a general manner. :)

YMMV
 
Just for the record, no one is stating that constant breeding STUNTS female fish, or STOPS growth ...... what we have said is that constant breeding starting at early age tends to SLOW growth, vs females that are not constantly breeding.

Certainly there are dozens of variables that one can factor into the equation - but I took this as a general question by the OP, and answered it in a general manner. :)

YMMV

And I thank you for that sir :) it was the factor I was interested in


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Before I joined I used to comb through old interesting threads, in one thread which for the love of me I cannot find there was a discussion in regards to breeding and growth. In that thread I believe ( I'm not altogether sure if it was this thread or not) someone said that breeding cichlids at smaller sizes slows their overall growth due to the bodily resources being diverted to reproduction. I was wondering if someone could confirm or deny this. If it proves to be true do you believe that it slows females more than males? Sorry for the lengthy intro it's just been in my mind lol


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As a marine scientist, I can say this is true for marine fish and I would make the assumption it is true for freshwater fish as well since the anatomy is very, very similar.

Fish pretty much occupy all their time breeding and eating. If they aren't doing one, they are doing the other. So lets say that a fish is taking in 64 units of food per day (no specific measure, so we will just call it a unit for the purpose of this demonstration). Their body is taking in 47 units of that food and excreting the remaining 17 units as waste. Of the 47 units of nutrient it acquired, it needs 32 of those units to function for that 24 hour period. The remaining 15 units are "excess" that the fish's body will use to do one of two things (since fish don't collect fat like humans do). They will either burn the nutrients to grow or to create gametes (reproductive cells). Or they would use the units for a combination of the two.

Now a female gamete (egg) takes much more energy to create than a male gamete (sperm). But the energy burn is offset by the fact that males produce many times more gametes than the females do. Now the number of gametes a female creates varies widely from species to species. My personal example would be honduran red points (40-50 eggs per clutch) versus their cousins, the convicts (200-300 eggs per clutch). Both fish are similar in size, but their egg clutch size is very different. So in that case, the female convict burned much more energy than the female HRP. The males of both species would produce sperm clouds of roughly the same number as male fish tend to create sperm clouds based on the size of their bodies and not so much their species type. So each of these fish has 15 units of "excess" energy to use. Fish never stop growing (not a single species does), but they will slow it WAY down in favor of reproduction. So lets say the males use 5-6 of those 15 units for reproduction of sperm clouds of identical sizes. The female HRP would use 6-8 units to create her 50 eggs, but the female convict would need to burn 13-14 units to create her 200 eggs. In reality, not a single bit of what I have explained is this cut and dry. It's all very variable and there are dozens of unforeseeable things that could change. But on the whole, yes, females do slow down more in growth than males do during times of reproduction because the energy cost to create their gametes is so much higher than a male's is.


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