This is why tiger barbs nip long finned fish!

[MultipleTankSyndrome]

Tiger barbs with archerfish, chalceus, and pictus catfish? - Loaches Online Forum

I didn't know this! But it does explain their feisty attitude and nipping behavior.

 

[Fishman Dave]

Feisty attitude and fin nipping behaviour.
Firstly, imo that wouldn’t come from being eaten by predators. You don’t automatically turn into a fin nipper because you get eaten by snakeheads, that would mean that every fish a snakehead preys on would be a fin nipper. And secondly, a feisty attitude and finnipping behaviour is a label we have given tiger barbs through keeping them incorrectly, in the wrong quantities, in the wrong settings, in the wrong sized tanks and with the wrong tankmates.
What we need to do as fish keepers is keep the right fish in the right settings with the right tank mates.
Yes, there are traits that fish in shoals will be seen to exhibit within hierarchy’s but that doesn’t mean they automatically exhibit the same behaviours outside their hierarchy - until we put said fish in an unnatural situation - such as in a small group with long finned companions.
Even many loaches if not kept in groups appropriately and kept with long finned tank mates could be seen as feisty and fin nippy as they try to act naturally but with other fish or are forced to take out boredom or frustrations on others.
So in this case if you want barbs in that tank then you need to find a barb that will suite the tank and occupants you have that can be kept in agreeable quantities.

 

[jjohnwm]

Feisty attitude and fin nipping behaviour.
Firstly, imo that wouldn’t come from being eaten by predators. You don’t automatically turn into a fin nipper because you get eaten by snakeheads, that would mean that every fish a snakehead preys on would be a fin nipper. And secondly, a feisty attitude and finnipping behaviour is a label we have given tiger barbs through keeping them incorrectly, in the wrong quantities, in the wrong settings, in the wrong sized tanks and with the wrong tankmates.
What we need to do as fish keepers is keep the right fish in the right settings with the right tank mates.
Yes, there are traits that fish in shoals will be seen to exhibit within hierarchy’s but that doesn’t mean they automatically exhibit the same behaviours outside their hierarchy - until we put said fish in an unnatural situation - such as in a small group with long finned companions.
Even many loaches if not kept in groups appropriately and kept with long finned tank mates could be seen as feisty and fin nippy as they try to act naturally but with other fish or are forced to take out boredom or frustrations on others.
So in this case if you want barbs in that tank then you need to find a barb that will suite the tank and occupants you have that can be kept in agreeable quantities.

^ What he said!

Sorry, but that "explanation" sounds patently ridiculous. But, to be fair, let's put aside the logical approach applied by Fishman Dave , and examine the idea. Perhaps the loach experts on that forum could describe exactly which species of snakeheads have long pointed fins? Maybe there are some less-well-known species that do...but every snakehead I have ever seen either in life or in photos has very short rounded fins. The only thing on them that is long and pointed is their teeth.

And "mobbing" is definitely a natural behaviour, but that term does not describe the way in which Tiger Barbs harass other fish. Calling it mobbing would imply that the entire school piles onto a single hapless victim simultaneously, relentlessly attacking it until it departs or hides. Tigers actually just take periodic swipes at the object of their scorn, individually, over a period of time. That's not mobbing. Ask Google.

You've really gotta spend less time on that forum...

 

[MultipleTankSyndrome]

Admittedly, I'm not familiar enough with either anything snakeheads or keeping tiger barbs to put the level of scrutiny on those statements that Fishman Dave or jjohnwm did. Such as how the harassing other fish is done, and the pointed fins on the snakeheads (although I can ask what species Bas Pels meant).
Maybe asking on some more sites (eg: this one) that deal more with barbs is a better idea than only Loaches Online.

There are a few things I do know enough about to comment on though.

that would mean that every fish a snakehead preys on would be a fin nipper.

I'm not sure I agree with this. Couldn't this just mean that tiger barbs are a species that have found it a practical defense?
Not every prey item of the same predator has the same defense. For example, any catfish a snakehead might prey on would lock their fin spines instead of nipping the snakehead's fins.

And secondly, a feisty attitude and finnipping behaviour is a label we have given tiger barbs through keeping them incorrectly, in the wrong quantities, in the wrong settings, in the wrong sized tanks and with the wrong tankmates.

Maybe so, but when I was considering tiger barbs for another tank in the past where their being eaten was not a concern, I heard the following.
I asked a few pet store employees if there was anything I might have to be worried about as far as attitude and fin nipping went. One of them had had 12 tiger barbs in a lightly stocked 208 liter with a bristlenose pleco as the only other fish. They told me that the pleco was nipped and pestered from time to time (which didn't change with increased feeding in case the barbs were hungry), so they said caution would be advised if I got any.
And there is another case reported where tiger barbs are said to 'get a taste' of almost all tankmates, although school size, tank size, and tank mates are not specified: http://forum.simplydiscus.com/archive/index.php/t-92472.html

Unless you or any others which are more familiar with tiger barbs than I have reason to believe this is a fluke, from hearing and reading these I get the impression that even in an appropriately sized school and tank with appropriate tankmates, they may act time to time as their natural behavior in the manner they do continuously when kept poorly.

In saying that, though, I know of an article on Seriously Fish which mentions how the tiger barb is not necessarily the species we think it is, which may have something to do with all this: https://www.seriouslyfish.com/its-o...er-loses-its-stripes-but-what-about-its-name/
I also just checked their tiger barb general information page, and despite outlining the proper procedures to keep this species, says it is relatively boisterous, which falls in line with what the pet store employee told me: https://seriouslyfish.com/species/puntigrus-tetrazona

What we need to do as fish keepers is keep the right fish in the right settings with the right tank mates.
Yes, there are traits that fish in shoals will be seen to exhibit within hierarchy’s but that doesn’t mean they automatically exhibit the same behaviours outside their hierarchy - until we put said fish in an unnatural situation - such as in a small group with long finned companions.
Even many loaches if not kept in groups appropriately and kept with long finned tank mates could be seen as feisty and fin nippy as they try to act naturally but with other fish or are forced to take out boredom or frustrations on others.

This is true.

So in this case if you want barbs in that tank then you need to find a barb that will suite the tank and occupants you have that can be kept in agreeable quantities.

Indeed. So far there are none, as I haven't yet found any filling the criteria you mention that I am attracted to.

 

[jjohnwm]

Tiger Barbs utilize a very common defense mechanism: schooling in large numbers. When small fish school, a predator which finds the school can eat its fill, but the vast majority will survive and escape. If Tiger Barbs were solitary, a predator moving around looking for food would attempt to eat each one that it found, as no single barb would satiate it. Thus more individuals would be killed and eaten as they were found over time.

The absurd idea that a school of barbs would go out of its way to attack and thus expose itself to every predator it encountered...as a defense mechanism...simply makes no sense. If it did, there would be many, many more species of small fish exhibiting this behaviour...but there aren't.

And pet store staff? Hmmm...I worked in a pet store for years, all throughout high school. Then...and I have no reason to suspect it's any different now...most of the staff had little or no experience with fish-keeping, and virtually none with adult fully-grown fish. They dutifully repeated what everyone else told them, without the interest or the opportunity to test it for themselves. The advice given was often useful (though not always!) for keeping alive the tiny immature tetras, barbs and livebearers that were the mainstay of sales; once those fish matured and attained full size, much of that "knowledge" went out the window. No disrespect intended towards the pet store staff who don't fit that mould; it would be interesting if some of them could respond here, as I am certain that we must have some of them here on MFK.

 

[MultipleTankSyndrome]

Tiger Barbs utilize a very common defense mechanism: schooling in large numbers. When small fish school, a predator which finds the school can eat its fill, but the vast majority will survive and escape. If Tiger Barbs were solitary, a predator moving around looking for food would attempt to eat each one that it found, as no single barb would satiate it. Thus more individuals would be killed and eaten as they were found over time.

The absurd idea that a school of barbs would go out of its way to attack and thus expose itself to every predator it encountered...as a defense mechanism...simply makes no sense. If it did, there would be many, many more species of small fish exhibiting this behaviour...but there aren't.

On paper, it might sound like a bad defense. But there are a number of animals that do it, from fish to birds, which tells me it is effective enough to do: file:///media/fuse/drivefs-0aa9c0854436ebfaa71c2e82cfb1c191/root/CarlsonGriesserMobbing2022.pdf
Also, tiger barbs are fast fish which can mob a predatory fish where it can't reach them (or at least not easily) with its mouth, such as on its dorsal fin or tail.

And it doesn't have to be for every encountered predator, just those that it's effective on. Different predators merit different defense strategies.

I'll reiterate again that I don't know enough about tiger barbs to comment on whether they actually mob. Just pointing out that mobbing isn't such a bad defense.

And pet store staff? Hmmm...I worked in a pet store for years, all throughout high school. Then...and I have no reason to suspect it's any different now...most of the staff had little or no experience with fish-keeping, and virtually none with adult fully-grown fish. They dutifully repeated what everyone else told them, without the interest or the opportunity to test it for themselves. The advice given was often useful (though not always!) for keeping alive the tiny immature tetras, barbs and livebearers that were the mainstay of sales; once those fish matured and attained full size, much of that "knowledge" went out the window. No disrespect intended towards the pet store staff who don't fit that mould; it would be interesting if some of them could respond here, as I am certain that we must have some of them here on MFK.

Key word here being most of the staff. Some staff (which you mentioned, the staff who don't fit that mold) certainly know what they're doing.
And I believe the staff I talked to was one because they had their fish in the mentioned appropriately sized tank and school with appropriate tankmates and stocking levels, and took a reasonable procedure of increasing feeding to try and stop the nipping.

 

[Kelly_Aquatics]

On paper, it might sound like a bad defense. But there are a number of animals that do it, from fish to birds, which tells me it is effective enough to do: file:///media/fuse/drivefs-0aa9c0854436ebfaa71c2e82cfb1c191/root/CarlsonGriesserMobbing2022.pdf
Also, tiger barbs are fast fish which can mob a predatory fish where it can't reach them (or at least not easily) with its mouth, such as on its dorsal fin or tail.

And it doesn't have to be for every encountered predator, just those that it's effective on. Different predators merit different defense strategies.

I'll reiterate again that I don't know enough about tiger barbs to comment on whether they actually mob. Just pointing out that mobbing isn't such a bad defense.



Key word here being most of the staff. Some staff (which you mentioned, the staff who don't fit that mold) certainly know what they're doing.
And I believe the staff I talked to was one because they had their fish in the mentioned appropriately sized tank and school with appropriate tankmates and stocking levels, and took a reasonable procedure of increasing feeding to try and stop the nipping.

Who gets to decide if the tank size and tank mates are appropriate? If the pleco was being nipped that would mean it is being treated the same as most other fish are by tiger barbs. And 50 gallons is on the low end of what I would consider adequate for 12 fast moving schooling fish.

 

[jjohnwm]

Who gets to decide if the tank size and tank mates are appropriate? If the pleco was being nipped that would mean it is being treated the same as most other fish are by tiger barbs. And 50 gallons is on the low end of what I would consider adequate for 12 fast moving schooling fish.

The Tiger Barbs I kept were in a larger tank (360 gallons +/-) and never paid any attention to other fish. I've seen similar lack of aggression in the species in other similar set-ups. Yet when placed into 50-70 gallon tanks, the same fish...not just the same species, but the actual same specimens...turned into the "typical" bullies that all the "experts" warn us about. So, for these barbs...large, adult fish at around 3-inches TL...those tanks were not "appropriate" for them to behave naturally. Or, put another way...it is in their nature to become aggressive when crowded.

A 50-gallon tank is way more than 6x the length of a mature Tiger Barb. However, just as this fanciful "rule" does not work when applied to slow-moving sedentary fish...it is equally, or even more, useless when applied to high-energy speedsters like Tigers.

I'm very familiar with mobbing activity; my wife and I are avid birders, and mobbing is seen frequently. Mobbing behaviour is so distinctive that it is used by birders to find specimens of owls and raptors that might otherwise have been missed; the mob creates a flurry of activity that is very visible and audible. Many birders use a technique called "pishing" or "spishing", which consists of imitating (by mouth or even with the use of specialized calls made and sold for the purpose!) the unique sound made by almost all small bird species when they are mobbing a predator. Imitating this sound actually brings small, shy birds out of heavy cover as they rush to join the party they hear going on.

When you see mobbing activity, it consists almost universally of a group of small birds, often mixed species, fluttering around the predator, calling continuously...and virtually never making actual physical contact. Certainly, no damage is done to the predator. Does that sound like Tiger Barb activity? No...

Gulls will mob and sometimes kill other large birds (usually raptors) but will then usually dine on the carcass. Does that sound like Tigers? No...

Mobbing behaviour is indeed a valid defensive technique...but it's not what these fish are doing. The exaggerated aggression displayed by all those hated Tiger Barbs isn't shown by all of them...just the ones who are forced into unnatural behaviour by inappropriate tank sizes and/or tankmates. If you are seeing this behaviour, then your notion of "appropriate" is, quite simply, incorrect. Who gets to decide what is appropriate? Excellent question; the fish do! And they don't do it "on paper"; they do it in real life.

Keeping fish "on paper" doesn't work. They need to be kept in water. When they react negatively to something...such as, for example, too small of a tank...then throw away the paper, observe what's going on "in reality", and react "appropriately".

If you solve the problem, then your actions were indeed "appropriate". If you don't...then they weren't, regardless of what is being said "on paper".

 

[MultipleTankSyndrome]

Was writing another response, but jjohnwm's personal experience makes it irrelevant.
One thing I was going to say that I trusted Seriously Fish to recommend an appropriate tank size (it appeared they recommended 80x30x30cm for 8-10 specimens, so 12 in a 208 liter would be understocked based on that). But I think what jjohnwm says otherwise is good to hear, considering it deals with personal experience in everything.
If the tiger barbs decide they need 1363+ liter tanks, that's a decision I'm fine with. They are after all the ones making them.

Thank you for sharing that experience. I have learned things about tiger barbs and mobbing I didn't know.

 

[A201]

I've kept Tiger Barbs on & off for many years. Small tanks, big tanks, kept with various Cichlids, Tetras, Livebearers, Loaches, Catfish & other Barbs.
IMO, when Tiger Barbs fin nip a tankmate they are simply testing the victim for a reaction. If the tankmate turns against the offending Barb that fish will usually be left alone.
Of course defenseless slow swimming, long finned fish probably should be avoided as tankmates.
When I was a kid back in the 1960's, my first real aquarium was a small steel framed tank. It had a in tank charcoal bubbler filter.
About the only fish available at my LFS were Zebra Danios, Neon Tetras, Mollies, Angels, Gouramis, Bettas, Corydoras, Guppies & Tiger Barbs.
At one time or another a combination of the listed fish were successfully kept together with Tiger Barbs. The Betta & Guppies didn't do well, Lol, but the others did.
All fish do better & act more naturally in spacious tanks and Tiger Barbs are no exception. That doesn't mean that Tiger Barbs won't thrive & be compatible with smartly selected tankmates in smaller tanks.
Most of the guys on this forum would have no trouble keeping Tiger Barbs in big pickle jars, Lol. Not recommended, but a 29 gal. tank would be a good starting point.