TIGRINUS DEAD =-(

[PeacockBass]

This is an article about newts but could be a reason how heat would cause the bloat.

The most common cause of kidney damage in the newts would be dehydration or HEAT STRESS sometime in the period after collection but before the newt ended up in the herpetoculturist's collection. Kidney damage can cause the symptoms of bloat DAYS to weeks following the cause of the damage as the kidneys slowly shut down (Wright, 1996). Kidney damage would explain why newly-imported newts often come down with "bloat", do not respond to antibiotic treatment, and do not pass the condition on to the other amphibians in the enclosure (as would be expected for a strictly bacterial infection). This would also explain why there are some spontaneous remissions of bloat (the damage was not so extensive the animal could not recover on its own, or the causative factor was starvation).

The article is found here

http://www.caudata.org/cc/articles/bloatEDK.shtml

I know they are two different species but maybe the tigs kidneys shut down because of the high temp.

excellent find! Although they are 2 completely different animals it is still a superb find. Now, the question I raze about the newts is, what kind of temp extremes will cause the kidney problems? And how much time is required for the exposure to be effective?

either way, good stuff man.

 

[Dargath78]

I like google

 

[PeacockBass]

I like google

I think everyone does..

also, another great source for just reg info is www.wikipedia.com, now beware, some of the info is incorrect but you shouldnt just look for 1 source when trying to become educated.. scan all available sources and pick the information which fits best when areas get sketchy.

 

[Oddball]

This event sounds to have been caused by overtemp and low DO. The area of the reported swelling isn't indicative of bloat as I've ever seen or heard of it.
Would you happen to have, or have access to a microscope. It doesn't need to have all the bells and whistles. 450x is great but, 300x should do. Siphon off some of the detritis from the tank and check for flagellates (whip-rudder monocellular organisms). Also, a dyed specimen or side-lighted view should yield bacteria under high power. Note the shapes, and outward architecture. The more thorough the description, the better evaluation can be made as to the diagnosis of a bloat event.
Hopefully, you still have the fish, whether frozen or chemically preserved. Make an incision at the caudal base and apply pressure to drain some blood. Note the color of the blood. Dark almost balack blood indicates liver damage/failure with a complete breakdown of the organ. A bile odor in the blood is another indicator (please don't perform this test on a chemically preserved specimen). Considering the position of the liver in fish, I would have to consider liver damage to have been a factor in the fish's death during this overtemp event.

 

[PeacockBass]

This is an article about newts but could be a reason how heat would cause the bloat.

The most common cause of kidney damage in the newts would be dehydration or HEAT STRESS sometime in the period after collection but before the newt ended up in the herpetoculturist's collection. Kidney damage can cause the symptoms of bloat DAYS to weeks following the cause of the damage as the kidneys slowly shut down (Wright, 1996). Kidney damage would explain why newly-imported newts often come down with "bloat", do not respond to antibiotic treatment, and do not pass the condition on to the other amphibians in the enclosure (as would be expected for a strictly bacterial infection). This would also explain why there are some spontaneous remissions of bloat (the damage was not so extensive the animal could not recover on its own, or the causative factor was starvation).

The article is found here

http://www.caudata.org/cc/articles/bloatEDK.shtml

I know they are two different species but maybe the tigs kidneys shut down because of the high temp.

Many people mistake "bloat" as a disease as opposed to a symptom

that is a perfect quote out of that article

 

[Oddball]

Hey!! I just noticed peacockbass is back. Where ya' been, man?

 

[PeacockBass]

This event sounds to have been caused by overtemp and low DO. The area of the reported swelling isn't indicative of bloat as I've ever seen or heard of it.
Would you happen to have, or have access to a microscope. It doesn't need to have all the bells and whistles. 450x is great but, 300x should do. Siphon off some of the detritis from the tank and check for flagellates (whip-rudder monocellular organisms). Also, a dyed specimen or side-lighted view should yield bacteria under high power. Note the shapes, and outward architecture. The more thorough the description, the better evaluation can be made as to the diagnosis of a bloat event.
Hopefully, you still have the fish, whether frozen or chemically preserved. Make an incision at the caudal base and apply pressure to drain some blood. Note the color of the blood. Dark almost balack blood indicates liver damage/failure with a complete breakdown of the organ. A bile odor in the blood is another indicator (please don't perform this test on a chemically preserved specimen). Considering the position of the liver in fish, I would have to consider liver damage to have been a factor in the fish's death during this overtemp event.

About time a Titan comes to the plate.

How are you doing Oddball, long time no see... I see you are still ripping it up with Exotics, somethings never change.... or should change for that matter


Now before I get deeper I want you to answer a few question.


1- If you suspect Low DO and a 90 degree temp is the culprit, why are you looking for Bacteria with the microscope?

2- What SP of flagellates are we searching for?

3- To my knowledge most liver damage is ill to recover, why are we seeing such an easy recovery for the third Tig?

4- why are we not seeing problems with other fish?


BTW- How about shipping me 100 small RTCs? there is an "Amazon" here that lacks big catfish.. kidding.

 

[PeacockBass]

Nonsense, pure speculation. Cite me sources as i have had it with your flawed ideas.
If you spew anything other than ideas backed up with reliable sources , considered it deleted.

..........

Please, tell me what you need a "source" for and I shall help you out.

I happen to think it is logical and, shall I say, pretty much Common sense. Anyone with a basic understanding of how a complex organism such as a fish body, or even a human body for that matter works, can easily recognise my posts to contain information that requires no sources to back it up, simply because Logic does so.

Tell me, WHy would I need a source to back up the idea that Swelling was cause of death? Obviously with-in the body, the organs will fail do to their overloaded state while being under the severe pressure. This is.... Common sense, is it not?

Next, Why would I need a source to back up the idea that the lack of O2 and higher than average temps (but NOT extreme temps by any means) will not cause a bloating? If you can prove they DO, then by all means, have at it.. but they dont.. How is it possible???? Will the Lack of O2 in the body create some chemical reaction with in the blood stream to enable an "expanding" effect on the muscle tissue? How about the Air bladder? OF COURSE NOT.

Next... well, I dont really need to go on, you get the point.

 

[Oddball]

An earlier post suggested that bloat may have been the culprit. Bloat can be caused by protozoans and/or bacteria. The flagellates in question are those protozoans that cause bloat. In a multi-specimen community, any fish with a lowered immune system will become afflicted first. Heat stress causes lowered immune system functions (Osmoregulatory imbalance). This would explain why one tig was afflicted and the others are OK. I'll have to look up the exact species of protozoans involved. This is all off the top of my head.
When all fish show signs of heat stress, it doesn't necessarily mean they've all suffered liver damage. The organ could have been stressed in those individuals that survived but, the liver didn't sustain permanent damage. The one that died could have been predisposed to quick liver failure due to previous illnesses or due to genetics.

 

[PeacockBass]

An earlier post suggested that bloat may have been the culprit. Bloat can be caused by protozoans and/or bacteria. The flagellates in question are those protozoans that cause bloat. In a multi-specimen community, any fish with a lowered immune system will become afflicted first. Heat stress causes lowered immune system functions (Osmoregulatory imbalance). This would explain why one tig was afflicted and the others are OK. I'll have to look up the exact species of protozoans involved. This is all off the top of my head.
When all fish show signs of heat stress, it doesn't necessarily mean they've all suffered liver damage. The organ could have been stressed in those individuals that survived but, the liver didn't sustain permanent damage. The one that died could have been predisposed to quick liver failure due to previous illnesses or due to genetics.

awesome, there are still a few parts I want to pick out which I think will stump you but ATM it is 85, sunny, and the waves are HUGE.

be back in a few hours.

BTW Oddball- thanks for comming in here and presenting some usefull info, I will continue with you shortly. You are indeed very knowledgable.