Tile:Is it waterproof...for a pond-please look!

[kallmond]

I would thorougly and evenly apply Titebond Plus between every 2x4 especialy the corners. I would sandwich a layer of 30 Lb roofing felt between the 2x4"s and the Hardibacker for an extra moisture barrier using Blackjack roofing cement at all overlaps. Attach the Hardibacker with galvanized roofing nails leving a 1/4" gap between all sheets. Reinforce all joints in the backer with 2" mesh sheetrock tape and mastic (not thin set mortar) Set all tiles using mastic and all you are left with is deciding how to grout/ silicone. I would research the grout story some more before deciding which way to go . If you can find an NSF approved grout this would be best. Perhaps a call to the manufacturer or a trip to a local tile store (not Home depot etc.)
You might want to dry run the actual total cost before you start.
Either way this looks like an interesting project and I am going to follow your progress with interest.

That seems like pretty massive overkill. This is the building method Nolapete did for his 4300 gallon, and he just used liquid nails and 4" deck screws to hold the 2x4 (he used 2x6 I think) together. He then lined the interior with plywood. Remember that the 2x4's are not providing water-tight seal, they're just structural support. The water tight seal comes from the liner/tile/pond armor/pond coat/fiberglass/epoxy choice you make.

Tile is not going to be cheaper than one of the paint-on applications, especially by the time you factor in the concrete backer-board required to stiffen the structure enough to not pop tiles every time someone walks by the tank. The liquid rubber product Pete (Nolapete) talks about has amazing characteristics and is specifically designed for this type of application.

 

[arowfan]

newtonatives-so you used silicone as replacement for grout and it works well, correct?
obviously I want to ask questions before I build this thing incorrectly, and find out the hard way that I should have done sometime else/missed something...
dawn-as far as I researched, this type of structure that I'm building with the 2x4s seems to be the standard build by many...and as kallmond mentioned, the 2x4s are only for structure, the tiling is going to be where the waterproofing starts...
below image is where I started to get ideas for my pond-minus the drain holes/L brackets-my 2x4s overlap as demonstrated in the last pic, but same concept (click on image to enlarge)

 

[dawnmarie]

That seems like pretty massive overkill. This is the building method Nolapete did for his 4300 gallon, and he just used liquid nails and 4" deck screws to hold the 2x4 (he used 2x6 I think) together. He then lined the interior with plywood. Remember that the 2x4's are not providing water-tight seal, they're just structural support.

There is no difference between what I suggest and Nolapete's design other than the use of screws. Titebond or Liquid Nails, take your pick. If Pete glued and screwed every lamination then the plywood liner should by your definition be purely cosmetic.
BTW I have never been accused of under building anything.

The water tight seal comes from the liner/tile/pond armor/pond coat/fiberglass/epoxy choice you make.

I couldn't agree with you more. The OP has decided for whatever reasons that he wants to do ceramic tile. This rules out all the other options you list.

Tile is not going to be cheaper than one of the paint-on applications, especially by the time you factor in the concrete backer-board required to stiffen the structure enough to not pop tiles every time someone walks by the tank.

Again, I agree with you , tile probably won't be cheaper. The use of backer board is not to "stffen" the structure, just to provide a uniform surface to attach the tile.
In effect by laminating 2x4's and adhesive one would be creating struuctural beams(also known as Gluelams). One could in theory apply the tile directly to the 2x4's with no danger of them popping off. The weak link is the grout lines. You do make a good point that wherever this tank sits better have a solid foundation.

The liquid rubber product Pete (Nolapete) talks about has amazing characteristics and is specifically designed for this type of application.

I think this would ultimately be a cheaper and easier option, but, if the OP really wants tile it just won't help.

BTW, I am currently planning a 3000 gallon tank and Pete's product is on my short list for liners.

 

[dawnmarie]

dawn-as far as I researched, this type of structure that I'm building with the 2x4s seems to be the standard build by many...and as kallmond mentioned, the 2x4s are only for structure,

Your design and Nolapete's will both work fine. The significant difference is your choice of tile as a liner.This makes your application not standard.The product Nolapete promotes has the ability to expand and contract and flex , something a tile lined tank better not do.

...the tiling is going to be where the waterproofing starts..

The tile is indeed where the waterproofing starts just not neccessrily where it ends. When professional tile setters builds a shower stall on a wood floor they don't rely on the tile/grout as the only means of waterproofing. Old timers often used roofing felt under the mortar bed, contemporary setters use an EPDM rubber membrane. The reason for this is the very real possibility that a tile could crack or a grout joint could fail.
If you were to use a rubberized product such as Nolapete has my suggestions would indeed be big time overkill, however, if you do rely on the tile and gout/silicone joints as waterproofing then overkill is your friend not to mention cheap insurance.

 

[CJH]

I was thinking about doing tiles after I found out how much the pond liner would cost and at the home depot near me (at least a week ago or so) they had some nice tan colored tiles for about 52 cents each
At that price, WHY NOT do tiles right!!?!?

What size tiles were these? One foot squares? If so that's pretty expensive especially since you still need mortar, silicone, or whatever materials you necessary to set them in place and make them fully waterproof.

You could use some of the cheaper epoxy resins or vinyl ester resins and waterproof for less overall money.

Of course if you like the look of tile then that's a different story. My concern with tile is that there are too many points of possible failure even if there are valid methods of setting and sealing them.

 

[mshill90]

I have a 1500 gallon indoor pond, 10ft x 6ft. I used 2x6's on 12 inch center, then have 1/2 plywood on the sides, 3/4 inch on the bottom. My tank sits 4.5 ft tall, water is filled to 4ft. My tank still bowed a little. I used construction adhesive, i put my tank together using 3.5 inch glue coated tails, i went through a whole case. My tank is lined with firestone epdm pond liner.

I have seen a couple people use 2x4 to build tanks and i have seen some disasters. I recommend layering 2x4's, with strips of plywood, and use PL heavy duty construction adhesive between layers. If you plan on doing tile i would still use some kind of water proofing agent under the tiles as a back up. Even if you layer everything, you still have a chance that the 2x4s are gonna bow a little. I have laid tile and if you put them on a surface that is not solid and may move, the tiles will move and come loose. Don't try to cut corners and save money, you will regret it in the future. Spend the extra money now, and do it right the first time. Check pool places for special sealers and grout if you use tile. Sealers at lowes/HD will not last.

 

[higgins]

Like the project this is sick. For the bottom and maybe side of the tank with the tiles to give it flex i would coat your base below your tiles with abaflex as a glue (flex type glue} the same company make a floor coat that levels foors and deals with movement in house's. might help to put a coat down around 2' before glue.

This should stop your tilles from breaking from the wieght also space your tiles around 3/8 of a inch apart you will need alot of silicone. silicone has a natural flex in it so should deal with the water weight and not leek. i don't think the silicone is the week point with the bigger gap in your tilies takes a bit of stress from the tilles with extra flex i guess it would last longer. if your tillies are biggish i think that would be your week point i wouldn't use anything bigger then a 150mm by 150mm spread the weight out instead of having alot of weight on few tilles more tillies less weight on each i think that make sence. good luck.

 

[arowfan]

hey all...so after really thinking this through...lol I think I'm going to be super safe, and just use a 45 mil pond liner... I do realize that with tiles comes the chance of them cracking...and I dont want to take that chance right now...perhaps in another chapter in my life lol, but not this one! I was thinking of laying some tiles on the pond bottom w/o any grout obviously-nas anyone done this? and how does it look?

but thank you all for your thoughts and contributing to this post!
I feel good that I asked before I acted <--then you would be following this story in the "leasons learned" forum lol

 

[nolapete]

With the tiles, did you calculate how many you'd need to cover the entire area?

If you're going to use a liner, check out my liner folding technique. http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2801858&postcount=27

A better solution would be Pond Coat/Rubber Coat. Flexible, no VOCs, 850% elasticity, self-healing; claims that no epoxy coating can make.

 

[arowfan]

thanks for sharing nolapete! will put that to use when I get to that stage

so that pond coat is pretty much a type of epoxy based paint or something?