Tips: Do You Need A Sump...?

[redtailshark1]

the oxygenation is increased with a drilled tank and sump
simply because the surface water is sucked away and the exposed water flow in the sump.
+that is a + isant it.
+there is more water so when some evaporates the level dosent go down

 

[CaptainNegatory]

Bump.

 

[pacu mom]

It doesn't have to be an either/or proposition. The best of both worlds is to have a sump and also canister filtration. You get the increased dilution factor of the sump, along with superb biological filtration (if it is a wet/dry), and potentially increased mechanical filtration/water circulation/aeration with a canister.

On our 300 gallon tank, we've taken it a third step and have extreme mechanical filtration utilizing two spa filters, great biological filtration with a wet/dry filter, and redundant filtration with an FX-5 canister. We have had great water parameters for the last four years. The only issue I have with wet/dry filtration is submerging the biomedia during a power outage to prevent die-off of the beneficial bacteria. (right now, we just open a valve and add more water to the main tank which adds water to the wet/dry), but this is so problematic for me, that on the new system, we are not going to use wet/dry filtration. We are going to rely on two Ultima 4000s for primary biological filtration. One of the Ultimas will run off a 330 gallon holding sump. The sump will also have a Clarity protein skimmer, and the heating, and UV sterilizer will all be connected to lines from the sump. I'll probably throw in some submerged biomedia into the sump, but we really wont' need it. I do like the holding tank/sump idea. BTW, we'll resolve the power outage worries with a generator that kicks on when the power is out. (right now, we do have a generator on the premises that we can use in the event of a long power outage)

IMO, sumps are almost a necessity for really large tanks.

 

[dawnmarie]

Wrong button

 

[dawnmarie]

Ther are so many generalizations and opinions stated as fact that it is difficult to see the value of this thread, however, I will try

any spraybar or exit used above the water level will result in head loss.

Technically correct. A spray bay mounted one inch above the surface will indeed result in ONE INCH of head loss. Not enough to matter.

You are going to see additional loss on some canister filters as the intake tubes are not big
enough to allow the flow from gravity alone to equal the flow of the pump.
the pump in the canister is doing additional work to suck the water through the intake hose at a higher pressure (to get additional flow through the tube).This of course means that the pump is experiencing loss. I don't think this qualifies as head loss, but is loss none the less.

Closed loop systems DO NOT rely on gravity, period. If the intake and return lines are of equal length and diameter there is NO loss or gain .

The bottom line here is that it really depends on the manufacturer and how they measure the flow in the filter.
Due to the lower true GPH I've seen on most canister filters, I would assume that many manufacturers rate the pumps themselves and not the filter as a whole. This is of course an assumption, but explains why even an empty canister with no media does not live up to the rated GPH.

You said it yourself my friend , it's all an assumption, not to mention a broad generalization.





I think I prefer Pharoahs quote

We could go on all day long as to which is better canisters, sumps or wet dry systems. It all boils down to budget, time, effort and personal preference.

If you're going to hijack a persons thread at least get your facts straight.

 

[Zander_The_RBP]

yep, canisters basicaly form a syphon and the water level in the tubes will fill up to the water level in the tank. And then the pump merely pushes the extra 2-3 inches over the edge and speeds up the flow so there is a very small amount of head height if you use the fx5 example, the loss of 300 gph is because of the restriction created by the media not head height.


each has there benefits and disadvantages IMO going with a smaller sump and a smaller canister would be better than going with 1 large sump or 1 large canister but for me building a wet/dry was much cheaper than buying a canister


i built a 40 gallon wet/dry that can hold 20 gallons of media(slightly higher flow rate on the sump) that beats the pants off of any FX5 (6 gallons of media)

not to mention in a wet/dry the bacteria always have an abundance of oxygen(20% oxygen in air only about 3-4% in water) so can always be working at their hardest (assuming every other parameter is in check)

 

[vaypourus]

Technically correct. A spray bay mounted one inch above the surface will indeed result in ONE INCH of head loss. Not enough to matter.

Don't take this out of context; the original statement was that canisters DO NOT have head loss. I said that they did. One inch or not, it is head loss. The argument was not whether this made a huge difference or not, as it obviously does not make a huge difference in a system.

Closed loop systems DO NOT rely on gravity, period. If the intake and return lines are of equal length and diameter there is NO loss or gain .

Closed loop system relies on a siphon, which is the direct result of hydrostatic pressure within the system. Since hydrostatic pressure is the pressure exerted by a fluid at equilibrium due to the force of gravity, I would say that gravity has something to do with it

You said it yourself my friend , it's all an assumption, not to mention a broad generalization.

Broad generalization or not, the fact remains that a canister will not produce the manufacturer rated GPH in a real world situation. I've yet to see a canister that produces actual numbers...but don't take my word for it. Do a search here in the forum or on google. Plenty of info about it.

If you're going to hijack a persons thread at least get your facts straight.

And I very much hope that wasn't directed at me, as my facts are straight and correct.

 

[Toby_H]

Argument #1 - Head Debate…
　
I side with DawnMarie, while there is 1~3” of head resistance on a canister filter, this is such a minor value it should be overlooked. Suggesting the canister suffers from head pressure is misleading…
　
　
Argument #2 - Closed loop & gravity impact…
　
I side with Vaypourus, gravity is one of the contributing forces at work in a closed loop system.
　
　
Argument #3 - GPH rating of canisters…
　
I call it a draw… we shouldn’t rely on assumptions to support our thoughts/beliefs, but typically canister filters are rated as the flow rate of the motor at zero resistance. Eheim and possibly a few others list their projected “actual” flow rate, although these numbers are not reliable. Many factors will impact the actual output you will get from your canister which means an honest “actual output” would be listed as a range, and a very large range with zero being the low number.
　
　
Sumps are like everything in life… there are pros and cons… consider what’s most important to you and decide what type of filter you wish to use…
　

 

[ph96ers]

very good debate but i must add to this. in my little experience with both canisters and sumps, they both have pros and cons, my sump is rated for 1400GPH on a 120G tank and it cost less that buying a canister filter and puts out almost 5-50 times the amount that of a canister filter would. On a big tank a sump is most deffinetly needed, but on a smaller tank i most likely would not go with a sump. regardless of any pump head loss is always a factor.

 

[HardcoreYobo]

What would a "big tank" be? Gallon wise? Planning a 270 gallon, and I wanted to know if a sump would be good or just to have both?