Trouble keeping Severums alive

[LT Connell]

I am heartbroken this morning. We lost our red spotted severum during the night - he was about 5", so not full grown yet. He didn't appear sick and has been eating well. He just died. This is our second severum to lose. The first was full grown and one day got an infection on his face that spread rapidly and killed him within a few days, despite treatment.

Are these guys just hard to keep alive? We have a very peaceful tank with a BGK, clown loaches, EBA's and Rainbow Cichlids. Absolutely nothing aggressive. I love the breed, it's just so hard to stomach netting out such beautiful fish when they die.

BTW, the tank is 300g.

 

[Deadeye]

I’m terribly sorry.
Only thing I could think of may be poor genetics in red spots, I know they are line bred for the color, which would overall result in health complications.

 

[Rocksor]

I wonder if the first one that died got spiked by the clown loaches when it got too close, and the wound eventually got infected. Clown loaches have a defensive mechanism under its eye, like a claw. If you lost the other one during the night, it could have gotten spooked by the nocturnal BGK, and rammed hard enough to the side tank wall, killing itself.

 

[duanes]

A couple questions that may, or may not be pertinent.
What is the pH, and hardness of your water. Severums come from soft, mineral poor, low pH water.
They are predominantly vegetarian in nature, what are you feeding?
None of these in itself could be a cause of death, but a combination of the above if out of their norm, could over time be a source of chronic stress that can cause of disease.
Below are water parameters where wild Severum are found.

 

[LT Connell]

I wonder if the first one that died got spiked by the clown loaches when it got too close, and the wound eventually got infected. Clown loaches have a defensive mechanism under its eye, like a claw. If you lost the other one during the night, it could have gotten spooked by the nocturnal BGK, and rammed hard enough to the side tank wall, killing itself.

They've been in there together for several months, but anything is possible. I think the first one "might" have had HITH and it got infected big time. He wouldn't eat, so had to directly treat the water. It's super hard to treat 300g, when we eventually caught him, we QT'd him and hit him with Bi-Furan, but by then it was too late. This second one did have a spell couple of weeks ago when we transferred two small EBA's into the tank and he pouted for a couple of days, as severums are known to do.

 

[LT Connell]

A couple questions that may, or may not be pertinent.
What is the pH, and hardness of your water. Severums come from soft, mineral poor, low pH water.
They are predominantly vegetarian in nature, what are you feeding?
None of these in itself could be a cause of death, but a combination of the above if out of their norm, could over time be a source of chronic stress that can cause of disease.
Below are water parameters where wild Severum are found.
View attachment 1438163

You might be on to something here. We live in Florida, on well water, which is hard and a pH of 7.8 - 8.0. I feed a mixture of pellets, both for carnivores and herbivores. Water temp stays about 79 in that tank. I was always told Central/SA cichlids prefer harder water and higher pH, but there are always one-offs. I always heard if they were bred in higher pH, they would adapt. They were both bought and bred locally. We also do large WC's at least every two weeks - should be weekly, but it takes about 2 hours to take out and refill 30%.

 

[duanes]

This is a myth that Central and South American cichlids live in the same types of water.
Most water in Central America is on the harder side, with pH much like your water in Florida (my water in Panama is often 8.2 and above).
Cichlids from the Amazon region of South America live in much softer, mineral free water condition with pH of 7 and sometimes dramatically lower in the 4-5 range (as you can see by the data).
Although the fish themselves may be able to adapt to a higher pH, they may not have developed immunity to the kind of bacteria that live in higher pH water, and often are susceptible to diseases like HLLLE that thrive in pH 7.5 and above conditions.
Also in the Amazon region and elsewhere in S American seasonal changes inundate rivers with Tannins, that are anti-bacteria in nature producing black water rivers like the Rio Negro, and these seasonal changes serve to alter bacterial populations that thrive during the dry season, doing a kind of cleansing, that can help immunity.

What is your nitrate level?
Sometimes more frequent water changes of a lessor volume can help, and be less time consuming.
If your nitrate is near 20ppm or above, this is also an added stressor to the hard, high pH water, because certain bacteria thrive in higher nitrate waters.
So the "dilution is the solution to pollution" adage might be also be relevant.

 

[LT Connell]

This is a myth that Central and South American cichlids live in the same types of water.
Most water in Central America is on the harder side, with pH much like your water in Florida (my water in Panama is often 8.2 and above).
Cichlids from the Amazon region of South America live in much softer, mineral free water condition with pH of 7 and sometimes dramatically lower in the 4-5 range (as you can see by the data).
Although the fish themselves may be able to adapt to a higher pH, they may not have developed immunity to the kind of bacteria that live in higher pH water, and often are susceptible to diseases like HLLLE that thrive in pH 7.5 and above conditions.
Also in the Amazon region and elsewhere in S American seasonal changes inundate rivers with Tannins, that are anti-bacteria in nature producing black water rivers like the Rio Negro, and these seasonal changes serve to alter bacterial populations that thrive during the dry season, doing a kind of cleansing, that can help immunity.
View attachment 1438168

So I suppose we should stock with Central American cichlids, rather than South American.

 

[LT Connell]

This is a myth that Central and South American cichlids live in the same types of water.
Most water in Central America is on the harder side, with pH much like your water in Florida (my water in Panama is often 8.2 and above).
Cichlids from the Amazon region of South America live in much softer, mineral free water condition with pH of 7 and sometimes dramatically lower in the 4-5 range (as you can see by the data).
Although the fish themselves may be able to adapt to a higher pH, they may not have developed immunity to the kind of bacteria that live in higher pH water, and often are susceptible to diseases like HLLLE that thrive in pH 7.5 and above conditions.
Also in the Amazon region and elsewhere in S American seasonal changes inundate rivers with Tannins, that are anti-bacteria in nature producing black water rivers like the Rio Negro, and these seasonal changes serve to alter bacterial populations that thrive during the dry season, doing a kind of cleansing, that can help immunity.
View attachment 1438168
What is your nitrate level?
Sometimes more frequent water changes of a lessor volume can help, and be less time consuming.
If your nitrate is near 20ppm or above, this is also an added stressor to the hard, high pH water, because certain bacteria thrive in higher nitrate waters.
So the "dilution is the solution to pollution" adage might be also be relevant.

At present, it's about 20-25 for nitrates. Definitely due for a WC, which I will do today. Thinking about what you said though, we have two Threadfin's in the tank too. Should we be concerned about the water being too hard for them as well?

 

[cmsbthebest]

Tbh, I believe while matching the native parameters for wild caught fish is incredibly important, when you have fish such as a red severum that has been line bred in the trade for years now, they will most likely be more adapted to handle average pH numbers. I think that a pH of 7.8 is nothing too extreme for a Red Severum. I've had one for years and at my old place, the pH was sometimes 8.1-8.2 (currently 7.5 in my new place) with medium hardness.

The important thing is to stay on top of water quality, and be aware that the fish may have died from injury such as slamming into the side of the tank too hard. I've personally seen that happen with a roseline barb while I was watching my previous tank (which is what makes me now believe keeping them in anything less than a 6 foot tank is asking for trouble).