Trouble with fishless cycle

[Clammie]

I seem to be a little bit stuck on my fishless cycle.
I'm using Boots Household Ammonia 9.5% concentration.
Filter is an Eheim 2217 with (First to last in water path):
Ehfimech
Blue sponge
Alphagrog
White floss
It's a 110 US Gallon tank.
No lights, no plants.

Tap water test results:
Ammonia Level - 0
Nitrite Level - 0
Nitrate Level -0
pH - 5.5/6

Here are my results from the past 11 days:

Day 1
Ammonia Level - 4.9 mg/l
Nitrite Level - 0 mg/l
Nitrate Level - 0 mg/l
pH - 6/6.5
Ammonia Added - 20ml
Day 2
Ammonia Level - 2.4
Nitrite Level - 3.3
Nitrate Level - 110
pH -6/6.5
Ammonia Added - 0
Day 3
Ammonia Level - 2.4
Nitrite Level - 3.3
Nitrate Level - 110
pH -5.5/6
Ammonia Added - 10ml (I was adding enough ammonia to bring it back up to 4.9 until I was told to do the add and wait method instead)
Day 4
Ammonia Level - 1.2
Nitrite Level - 3.3
Nitrate Level - 110
pH - Didn't test for some reason.
Ammonia Added - 17.5ml
Day 5
Ammonia Level - 1.2
Nitrite Level - 3.3
Nitrate Level - 110
pH - 5/5.5
Ammonia Added - 0 (Using the add and wait method here)
Day 6
Ammonia Level - 1.2
Nitrite Level - 0.1
Nitrate Level - 110
pH - 4.5/5
Ammonia Added - 0
Day 7
Ammonia Level - 1.2
Nitrite Level - 0
Nitrate Level -5
pH - <4.5
Ammonia Added - 20ml
Day 8
Ammonia Level - 2.1
Nitrite Level - 0.8
Nitrate Level -50/110
pH - <4.5
Ammonia Added - 0
Day 9
Ammonia Level - 4.9
Nitrite Level - 0
Nitrate Level - 0
pH - <4.5
Ammonia Added - 0
Day 10
Ammonia Level - 4.9
Nitrite Level - 0
Nitrate Level - 5
pH - <4.5
Ammonia Added - 0
Day 11
Ammonia Level - 4.9
Nitrite Level - 0
Nitrate Level - 5
pH - <4.5
Ammonia Added - 0.

Would really appreciate any help!

 

[Deaths Sting]

ur pH is ridiculously low! 4.5 yikes!!

Beneficial bacteria begin to die off when the pH starts to go below 5.5. that is ur biggest concern at this moment. other wise u need to be patient and wait for the tank to cycle.

u may want to add crushed coral to u filter. this will boost ur pH and stabilize it as well since ur KH will be increased too.

 

[Clammie]

Thanks for the repy.
Where's the best place to get crushed coral?
Have you got any idea how the pH just dropped like that? Do you think I should keep the crushed coral in the filter all the time from now on?

 

[scotty1969]

my fishless cycle took 3 weeks to complete . and i added ammonia daily to bring back to the right level . and waited .....


hang in there bud it will happen , just when you think you cant do it another day it will be done ....

 

[Deaths Sting]

Thanks for the repy.
Where's the best place to get crushed coral?
Have you got any idea how the pH just dropped like that? Do you think I should keep the crushed coral in the filter all the time from now on?

the best place to get Crushed Coral would be the LFS or online. i would be more specific but unfortunately ur in the UK and im not familiar with whats available to u.

Ur KH/Alkalinity is ur buffering capacity for u pH. your tap water probably has 0 KH. - this is could be ONE possible reason. having lots of nitrate, Co2 and organics also causes pH to drop.

i would make Crushed coral a permanent resident in ur filter, its a pretty decent bio media as well! (very porous)

 

[Toby_H]

There is definitely some truth to what Death Stings is suggesting abotu bacteria & PH... but I do not believe this is the point of your concern nor the point you should be addressing...

You say you are doing a fishless cycle... you did not mention using any bacterial additives (such as Seachem's Stability or the like) nor have you mentioned using any seeded media (or other materials) from a mature tank...

Yet 24 hours after adding your first dose of ammonia, you not only have an impressive nitrite reading but a surprisingly high nitrate reading. This does not make sense...

You continued adding ammonia which continued to be oxidized into nitrite/nitrate, yet your nitrates didn't continue to rise. This seems very odd...

What test kit were you using? Most test kits display a limited range with accuracy, but outside that range colors are quite hard to distinguish from one another and accuracy is lost. I suspect your high end nitrate readings beyond the trustworth range of your test kit. For a more accurate reading at higher concentrations you can dilute your 'dirty' tank water with 'clean' tap water at a 50/50 mix... then multiply the result by 2 for your tanks reading. If this si still to high mix 25% tank water / 75% tap water and multiply by 4...

How/Why did your nitrates go from 110 ppm on day 6 to 5 ppm on day 7? Did you do a water change? Add any additives to address the nitrates? Nitrates just dissappearing doesn't make a bit of sense and low PH doesn't begin to explain this.


So I can understand why you are so full of questions...


For starters, I think you have made some errors in your testing. Being both simple and blunt, the numbers you listed above cannot be true without A) seeding the tank with ample bacteria, and B) Doing water changes...

I just don't think you neglected to mention such critical points...


My advice is to dose as needed to keep the ammonia around 2 ppm... ignore the nitrite and nitrates at first...

It's highly unlikely that your "full stock" after cycling will produce even close to 5 ppm of ammonia per day... thus adding such a high level of ammonia only causes your total pollutants to be unnecessarily high throughout the cycling process.

Don't be afraid to do water changes during your fishless cycle. Many people are mislead to believe that lowering the waste build up will slow down the cycling process. I assure you if there is any detectable level of ammonia/nitrite in the water the ammonia/nitrite consuming bacterial colonis will be growing. Consider a healthy mature tank, there is no detectable ammonia nor nitrite, yet the colonies are healthy and thriving...

High concentrations of nitrogen based waste byproducts (ammonia, nitrite & nitrate) can/will cause a PH crash. I've read a lot of information that suggests bacteria will not thrive at a PH below 5... but I also have a lot of first hand experience keeping fish tanks with a PH between 4~5... In my experience the cycling process at these lower PH levels is no different than at more typical PH levels...


My advice... use lower ammonia concentrations... water change as needed to prevent waste levels getting out of control (off the chart is out of control)... don't start changing all sorts of things at this stage. You don't have any fish in the tank to kill so just go through the motions and learn as you go...

 

[Clammie]

Thanks for the reply nc!

There is definitely some truth to what Death Stings is suggesting abotu bacteria & PH... but I do not believe this is the point of your concern nor the point you should be addressing...
Do you think I should add crushed coral to my filter as well?

You say you are doing a fishless cycle... you did not mention using any bacterial additives (such as Seachem's Stability or the like) nor have you mentioned using any seeded media (or other materials) from a mature tank...
The only thing I used was Seachem Prime when I first added the water and I used filter media from an old tank, but the media had been boil washed, scrubbed and left to dry.

Yet 24 hours after adding your first dose of ammonia, you not only have an impressive nitrite reading but a surprisingly high nitrate reading. This does not make sense...

You continued adding ammonia which continued to be oxidized into nitrite/nitrate, yet your nitrates didn't continue to rise. This seems very odd...

What test kit were you using? Most test kits display a limited range with accuracy, but outside that range colors are quite hard to distinguish from one another and accuracy is lost. I suspect your high end nitrate readings beyond the trustworth range of your test kit. For a more accurate reading at higher concentrations you can dilute your 'dirty' tank water with 'clean' tap water at a 50/50 mix... then multiply the result by 2 for your tanks reading. If this si still to high mix 25% tank water / 75% tap water and multiply by 4...
I'm using the Nutrafin Mini Master Test Kit. The ammonia scale reads from 0 - 7.3 mg/l To dilute the tank water should I just get a glass from the tank and mix it that way? Would I test as normal, just from the glass and not the tank?

How/Why did your nitrates go from 110 ppm on day 6 to 5 ppm on day 7? Did you do a water change? Add any additives to address the nitrates? Nitrates just dissappearing doesn't make a bit of sense and low PH doesn't begin to explain this.
I added nothing to the tank nor did I do any water changes. I have no idea how or why this happened.


So I can understand why you are so full of questions...


For starters, I think you have made some errors in your testing. Being both simple and blunt, the numbers you listed above cannot be true without A) seeding the tank with ample bacteria, and B) Doing water changes...

I just don't think you neglected to mention such critical points...


My advice is to dose as needed to keep the ammonia around 2 ppm... ignore the nitrite and nitrates at first...
Should I add ammonia every day to do this? Or do the add and wait method?

It's highly unlikely that your "full stock" after cycling will produce even close to 5 ppm of ammonia per day... thus adding such a high level of ammonia only causes your total pollutants to be unnecessarily high throughout the cycling process.

Don't be afraid to do water changes during your fishless cycle. Many people are mislead to believe that lowering the waste build up will slow down the cycling process. I assure you if there is any detectable level of ammonia/nitrite in the water the ammonia/nitrite consuming bacterial colonis will be growing. Consider a healthy mature tank, there is no detectable ammonia nor nitrite, yet the colonies are healthy and thriving...
I hadn't thought of it that way. If my ammonia doesn't come down from 4.9, should I do a water change? If so, how much water would you recommend changing?

High concentrations of nitrogen based waste byproducts (ammonia, nitrite & nitrate) can/will cause a PH crash. I've read a lot of information that suggests bacteria will not thrive at a PH below 5... but I also have a lot of first hand experience keeping fish tanks with a PH between 4~5... In my experience the cycling process at these lower PH levels is no different than at more typical PH levels...
Should I wait until I am cycled to bring the pH level back up or would it be okay to do that at this stage?


My advice... use lower ammonia concentrations... water change as needed to prevent waste levels getting out of control (off the chart is out of control)... don't start changing all sorts of things at this stage. You don't have any fish in the tank to kill so just go through the motions and learn as you go...

Sorry for all the questions. This is something I am completely new to.

 

[bob965]

Probably a problem with your test kit, or inconsistencies in your testing methodology. If it was me, I'd just say screw it.....100% water change, start stocking, monitor water chemistry closely. That's a decent sized tank, so as long as you're not grossly overstocking with ginormous fish, water parameters will change very slowly and will be easy to monitor and control. Your pH right out of the tap might need to be addressed however, 5.5 is pretty low.

 

[Toby_H]

Do you think I should add crushed coral to my filter as well?

Not right now...

Using crushed coral is an option to raise KH ? PH but at this point (no fish) PH doesn't really matter. Plus if you follow my other suggestions your waste concentrations will be lower thus your KH / PH will be higher...

The only thing I used was Seachem Prime when I first added the water and I used filter media from an old tank, but the media had been boil washed, scrubbed and left to dry.

So you've done nothing that would 'seed' your tank, meaning add bacteria. It is exceptionally unlikely that in one day you have acquired the bacteria necessary to oxidize ammonia (turn it into nitrite), much less acquired it in large enough quantities to explain the numbers you are reporting.

I think you are probably makign a mistake in your testing methods, or there is a slight chance your test kit is not measuring accurately.

I'm using the Nutrafin Mini Master Test Kit. The ammonia scale reads from 0 - 7.3 mg/l To dilute the tank water should I just get a glass from the tank and mix it that way? Would I test as normal, just from the glass and not the tank?

I've never used the Nutrafin kit personally (I use API's) but with most kits I've seen, the colors are hard to distinguish as they get higher and the values the color represents get larger.

To test a mix, I suggest accurately measuing a volume of water and placing it in an innert container, such as a drinking glass. take one measure from the tap (add proper quantity of dechlor) and one measure from the tank, add both measures to the drinking glass. Stir well, then acquire your testing sample from the glass.

During a fishless cycle is the time for you to get a good bit of experience playing with water chemistry without putting fish at risk. So don't hesitate to try 50/50 mix, 25/75, 75/25, 20/80, etc. This will also give or break your confidence in your testing kit.

I added nothing to the tank nor did I do any water changes. I have no idea how or why this happened.

There is no benefit to having abnormally high waste concentrations, but there are potenital problems. So don't let them get to high. By 'abnormal' I mean higher than what would be produced with/by fish.

Water change as much as you need to keep the parameters within an 'acceptible' range.

Should I add ammonia every day to do this? Or do the add and wait method?

Personally, I add daily whatever necessary (if any at all) to keep the ammonia content at 2 ppm. Don't worry if it drops below for a day here and there. You are not going to starve bacteria to death in 24 hours.

I hadn't thought of it that way. If my ammonia doesn't come down from 4.9, should I do a water change? If so, how much water would you recommend changing?

However much needed to get your waste concentrations in the range you want. Water changes bring you no harm...

Should I wait until I am cycled to bring the pH level back up or would it be okay to do that at this stage?

I think your PH is crashing because of the excessive waste concentrations. Do your water changes and get things back on track and then monitor your PH. It will likely stabilize itself back to what your tap shows.

At that point you may or may not want to adjust the PH, depending on the species of fish you plan to keep

 

[Clammie]

To test a mix, I suggest accurately measuing a volume of water and placing it in an innert container, such as a drinking glass. take one measure from the tap (add proper quantity of dechlor) and one measure from the tank, add both measures to the drinking glass. Stir well, then acquire your testing sample from the glass.

I did the method you suggested and the water just turned black.
I'm using Seachem Prime to dechlorinate so it's hard to get the exact amount for a small quantity of water. I used 0.5ml which is enough for 20 litres.
Could the black water be due to using too much prime?