true species

[csx4236]

Here is "The 2008 AES International Captive Elasmobranch Census" with some numbers of freshwater stingrays in public collections:

http://elasmo.org/census2008.xls

A total of 113 leopoldi and 23 henlei is listed there.

About the species discussion, latest info i got was that we will see some new species names in the future. The cf. histrix from Rio Negro, cf. leopoldi (Itaituba, P14) from Tapajos and the pearlray from Tapajos are possibly new species.

And the DNA work reveals, that COI is not the ideal sequence to differentiate the potamotrygon species because they are very close related. Hopefully microsatellite marker will give better results.

Very cool who put this list together and how do you add to it?

 

[rayman]

Very cool who put this list together and how do you add to it?

More info:
http://elasmo.org/census.php


Nice reading on definitions of species:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Species_concept#Definitions_of_species

 

[JD7.62]

I think there are more black rays in private hand then you think. Not many but more then 500 in the US. You never know whos next door. Not everyone is on MFK. I know a couple of people that have some amazing and rare collections (not black rays but just an example) that have never been on an internet forum.

But to the species.

Here is what I think just going by what Ive noticed when Ive seen some of these rays in person and from the interwebs:

Retics, tigers, and flowers all seem to be closely related. They have similar shaped disks, small mouths, and similar tails.

Motoros, Perusp and humerosa/orbs I like to group together.

Leo, henlei, P14 together and I will throw in scobina cause they look just like P14 pups.

Castexi are so variable, kinda like motoros, maybe falkneri is a variant?

Obviously the chinas, airibas (sp?), brachys are all so different they are their own species.

Hystrix seem pretty isolated with their high dome shape then there is the hystrix from Paraguay/Argentina that looks similiar in the body and eyes but completely different and AMAZING pattern.

Then there are pearls...natural hybrid that have come to be their own sp? Black/motoro?

 

[Gr8KarmaSF]

I think there are more black rays in private hand then you think. Not many but more then 500 in the US. You never know whos next door. Not everyone is on MFK. I know a couple of people that have some amazing and rare collections (not black rays but just an example) that have never been on an internet forum.

Agreed ^

Stats also dont take into account illegal possession, births, etc. Can only be estimates considering its not required participation and only volunteered info.

 

[Miles]

<- doesn't want to talk about the petsmart customer who has a rio negro histrix in a 30x18" and won't sell it to him..


Alot of rare rays out there that aren't accounted for..

 

[Nic]

with all the talk about "species" part definition of a "true species" is that the "hybrids" cannot produce viable off springs. but it seems like science is being re-written daily, with more and more artificial hybrids being made. fish from completely different genere are being hybridized.,

and the rays, "sp" we see are making viable off springs, right? so what does that mean as far as keeping a species pure?

are p12, p13, p14, motoro, pearl, tiger, all different species, unique to their own, or are they maybe very closely related, variations of the same?

with most hybrids, people frown on and criticize, but it seems like with rays, the feeling is mixed at best.

to be technical they are all Potamotrygon but yes ray keepers are more open to hybrids... we are more laid back unlike the panty's all in a bunch cichlid guys... as far as keeping pure species there will always be breeders just breeding pure rays...

the reason people are talking about not hyrbodizing the rays is because in the case of brazilian rays.... there isnt a viable source for pure blood anymore. Eventually if we keep hybrodizing rays there isnt going to be a pure leo, or a pure heneli anymore. Just all kinds of hybrids

i dont think we will ever see "pure bloods" disapear completely.... between europe and mike and other etc... there will always be pure blood rays

I would agree with you Fugu that they are technically all 1 species and scientifically speaking they aren't considered 'hybrids' but more rather 'cross-breeds'.. One of my co-workers is always on my case about using the term hybrid, because that would more so refer to the blood parrot cichlid, not a crossbred ray..

so thats why we are more laid back than the cichlid nuts.... they are crossbred rays not hybrids

I would say there has to be atleast 3-4 or distinct species though.. I just don't see a Reticulata and Tiger ray producing viable offspring..

I think crossbreeding rays is great based on the fact that we can manipulate for size and pattern to best fit domestic aquaria's needs.. We can produce our own viable, high-dollar offspring without removing rarities from the wild. I also believe it to not be as detrimental as other fishkeeping 'cliques' that frown upon hybridization because the gestation period and maturity times make it a very long process in order to deplete the gene pool, unlike livebearers, cichlids, and other faster reproducing fish.

But as the Turkeyboy said.. Not having wild livestock will definitely damage the breeding genetics of 'pureblood' variations such as Leopoldi and Henlei.. and it won't take long either.

we all know there are always rays being smuggled and i think we will be fine in the pure blood area for awhile to come.... atleast in europe and the usa.... now asia is a different story

What's funny to think about is there are probably alot of 'pureblood' Leopoldi's floating around out there, exported from Brazil, that hybridized in the wild anid have mixed genetics even though they show 100% leopoldi patterns and traits.. How pissed would you be to spawn 2 pure wild-caught Leopoldi only to produce a Motoro offspring

Just remember you heard it here, on Monsterfishkeepers.com first. This, "situation" will change before you know it, as we speak...

still dont see it happening that quickly unless im missing something

add to that. there are many not too many black rays of various sorts in this country. what would you guys guess? 1000 pieces total? less, ? I would guess maybe 500-700 total alive?

well, in Asian countries, there are thousands and thousands more, not just thailand, but china, japan, malaysia, singapore., etc...,many of which are not shown online.

how many rays in captivity in europe?

I've seen so many crazy variations from captive fish that it just blows my mind, and that is what keeps me wanting them more. maybe someone would be wiling to post some of those pictures.,

In the US 500 or less live blackrays IMO.

i think the numbers are very high.... these rays used to be very cheap...

"but it seems like science is being re-written daily"

What we are seeing is not rewriting science, it's simply variations on breeding similar or differential traits on same or nearly related species. To have a true scientific declaration of species or traits you need to have a much more detailed description than varying color patterns or tail lengths for example. The most accurate and definitive method for species origins and linage is to do DNA research to determine true species specific traits and this would also lead to determining if similar looking species are variations of the same species or have evolved entirely apart from one another. I suspect that there are many varying traits on similar specimens due to varying regions that each is found. Captive breeding would seem to back this up. The road it seems we are going down here is the same that the Carp/Koi is going. This is where there is a base species that is breed to have offspring of differing selective traits. The same could be said for dogs and cats. This of course would require a lot of research to determine how much is true different species and how much is varying traits among the same or very closely related species.


One thing for sure is that this type of breeding is or will be driven by market prices for selective traits much like koi or specially breed dogs or cats. Also this type of breeding has nothing to do with determining what the origin species was especially if you don't know for sure if its only varying traits vs. hybridizing differing species.


"In the US 500 or less live blackrays IMO."

There's more than you think. I recently went to the Dallas World Aquarium (where zoodiver and I used to work) for a leafy seadragon symposium and they have a ton of back area holding tanks where there were at least a couple hundred Leo/henlei rays not to mention what they had on display in the exhibits.

2cts.

great info..... please tell me you took pix of that many black rays

Agreed ^

Stats also dont take into account illegal possession, births, etc. Can only be estimates considering its not required participation and only volunteered info.

x3

 

[nickdog98]

haha true could be 500 in California alone LOL

 

[JD7.62]

<- doesn't want to talk about the petsmart customer who has a rio negro histrix in a 30x18" and won't sell it to him..


Alot of rare rays out there that aren't accounted for..

I worked at a petshop a little over a year ago and a fellow was telling me about a guy he knows in a little town in southern Indiana that "has two rays that breed several times a year." I asked him what kind and he says, "I dont know, they are really big and are black with white polka dots..."

I asked him to get me his contact info but he said he would talk to him and get back with me. I only worked at that shop before I got a "rea" job for two more weeks and never saw him again. It could have been all BS but this guy knew nothing about rays and for him to describe a leo perfectly kind of wants to make me believe its true.

Also a pet shop in Lexington KY sold a leo for only $150 in the last year. I know this because I know one of the employees at the store who actually got stung by it and showed me the scar!

Leos, from what I hear, are pretty hardy and you dont know who bought one from a LFS three years ago and its still in his 180!

 

[andersp90]

I worked at a petshop a little over a year ago and a fellow was telling me about a guy he knows in a little town in southern Indiana that "has two rays that breed several times a year." I asked him what kind and he says, "I dont know, they are really big and are black with white polka dots..."

I asked him to get me his contact info but he said he would talk to him and get back with me. I only worked at that shop before I got a "rea" job for two more weeks and never saw him again. It could have been all BS but this guy knew nothing about rays and for him to describe a leo perfectly kind of wants to make me believe its true.

Also a pet shop in Lexington KY sold a leo for only $150 in the last year. I know this because I know one of the employees at the store who actually got stung by it and showed me the scar!

Leos, from what I hear, are pretty hardy and you dont know who bought one from a LFS three years ago and its still in his 180!

That how i found my leo male.

And i think there are more rays to find.

 

[turkeyboy85]

Also a pet shop in Lexington KY sold a leo for only $150 in the last year. I know this because I know one of the employees at the store who actually got stung by it and showed me the scar!

Leos, from what I hear, are pretty hardy and you dont know who bought one from a LFS three years ago and its still in his 180!

Thats how i got my pair.... one down in illinois that i paid 675 for an 18" male and a 12" male hystrix, and then a pet store in milwaulkee had my female in a 180