Under stocked vs over stocked...

[petspoiler]

When they return to the car to see the animal half dead.. they do it next time. I've heard them brag about how long they've left their animals "the they where just fine".... so yes? And I compleately agree with you it is sick and sadistic to do such a thing to any animal... but most people don't view their fish to the level we do our dogs... and this is how they get treated... so it should not "shock" anyone worse treatment and more prevelant treatment is seen in our fish pet trade... It's deffinately not right. But until laws are brought about... You can't do anything about it but discourage the behavior as a fish community...

My return question was posed... What defines overstocking vs understocking? Other then the extreames of both "Stacking fish like wood" or "keeping a guppy in a 1k gallon tank" .... where is the acceptable level since keeping them in captivity period is "Overstocking" The general concesnsus seems to be thriving fish... if your fish aren't killing eachother, are breeding, and living close to or past their wild life span... who is joe schmo to complaine how you do it? because the human variable plays the rest of the roll.

I just try not to "judge" people if I odn't know them personally.

Mostly, I agree with you.
Except, there is a difference between judging people, and some behavior of our self-proclaimed peers.
To perpetuate suffering because one keeps enjoying it, ie; performing deliberate cruelty by using the cloak of a legitimate hobby, is the responsibility of actual hobbyists to judge/speak up. and sometimes refuse to be their audience.
IMO, that is a different beast than this thread topic.

There will always be fish casualties involved in the learning curve of keeping them, unforeseen things, errors, and just plain "it goes with the territory". That's where we all start, and will continue learning how to weigh the risks of different situations, tank conditions & species. Casualties are a permanent aspect. Most should not be judged.
The exception being, when casualties are the Poster Children portraying someone's ongoing enjoyment. Then hobbyists will either judge it or the Hobby will end up OWNING it.
Let's not, because that is not fish keeping.

I have latitude in how others define their stock levels, and implement reasoned efforts.
The acceptable level of my own risk-taking is much lower, as I'm less experienced.
At the same time, reality is that I can't broaden my learning without taking inherent risks with some fish. Nobody can.
I don't want to stalemate myself by sitting atop a high horse, because it's a long ways to the ground.

;-]

My only definition of under stocking is, a single schooling fish which shows stress from being completely alone. I've seen that when a danio's tank mates eventually died, before I replenished a small tank.

 

[Miguel]

Mostly, I agree with you.
Except, there is a difference between judging people, and some behavior of our self-proclaimed peers.
To perpetuate suffering because one keeps enjoying it, ie; performing deliberate cruelty by using the cloak of a legitimate hobby, is the responsibility of actual hobbyists to judge/speak up. and sometimes refuse to be their audience.
IMO, that is a different beast than this thread topic.

There will always be fish casualties involved in the learning curve of keeping them, unforeseen things, errors, and just plain "it goes with the territory". That's where we all start, and will continue learning how to weigh the risks of different situations, tank conditions & species. Casualties are a permanent aspect. Most should not be judged.
The exception being, when casualties are the Poster Children portraying someone's ongoing enjoyment. Then hobbyists will either judge it or the Hobby will end up OWNING it.
Let's not, because that is not fish keeping.

I have latitude in how others define their stock levels, and implement reasoned efforts.
The acceptable level of my own risk-taking is much lower, as I'm less experienced.
At the same time, reality is that I can't broaden my learning without taking inherent risks with some fish. Nobody can.
I don't want to stalemate myself by sitting atop a high horse, because it's a long ways to the ground.

;-]

My only definition of under stocking is, a single schooling fish which shows stress from being completely alone. I've seen that when a danio's tank mates eventually died, before I replenished a small tank.

Very well put, Barbara. Very well put.

 

[CarvinSigX]

Here's a little list I thought of, but I'm sure people can help out with the ones I've missed. If a single fish of yours struggles to turn around. If your bioload makes it anywhere near difficult to maintain, unless they're rays or heavy waste producers, but your water better be perfect. If you lose fish due to your bioload or aggression. If fish can't properly set up territories, aside from hiding buddies. If your fish are stunting each other's growth...You're overstocked.

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[tomomothy]

+1, you hit all of my bullet points that I can think of

 

[MonsterMinis]

Very well put, Barbara. Very well put.

X2 No arguement here. I think you put into words much better then I did. in a nutshell.. but I think I am more a "don't comment, don't encourage" I try not to be negative.. I will on occasion if I feel its needed ( generally when no one else has pointed out what I perceive as a glareing red flag. so the OP hopefully does abit more research or asks more questions)

RD and I agree.. laws are a very slippery slope.. but when blatent abuse is going on there should be something that can be done to attempt to stop it other then what resources we have now. and I don't compleately disagree with other countries laws... but imo they could start with holding the fish supplies/stores more accountable. Buyer beware.. but they should be required to provide honest info and not straight out lies.

 

[petspoiler]

....... If fish can't properly set up territories, aside from hiding buddies..........

"technically" my 20G with 2 mbuna is overstocked. The fish can't set territories. my divider allows the blue one to survive, with a small section. We feel bad, but he enjoys sparring thru the egg crate. LOL. without that he's dead meat.
They're both very personable, and break the surface to eat from our fingers.
;-)
just kiddin w/you about rules. guess I have an african Betta.

 

[RD.]

x3 or 4, I lost count. Very well put, petspoiler.

 

[petspoiler]

I think I am more a "don't comment, don't encourage" I try not to be negative.. .

;-)
Yeah, that aspect of you does show.
Unfortunately, every once in a while I go ballistic when something bumps a certain trigger. Rahrrr.
LOL.

 

[cl0wn knife]

Mostly, I agree with you.
Except, there is a difference between judging people, and some behavior of our self-proclaimed peers.
To perpetuate suffering because one keeps enjoying it, ie; performing deliberate cruelty by using the cloak of a legitimate hobby, is the responsibility of actual hobbyists to judge/speak up. and sometimes refuse to be their audience.
IMO, that is a different beast than this thread topic.

There will always be fish casualties involved in the learning curve of keeping them, unforeseen things, errors, and just plain "it goes with the territory". That's where we all start, and will continue learning how to weigh the risks of different situations, tank conditions & species. Casualties are a permanent aspect. Most should not be judged.
The exception being, when casualties are the Poster Children portraying someone's ongoing enjoyment. Then hobbyists will either judge it or the Hobby will end up OWNING it.
Let's not, because that is not fish keeping.

I have latitude in how others define their stock levels, and implement reasoned efforts.
The acceptable level of my own risk-taking is much lower, as I'm less experienced.
At the same time, reality is that I can't broaden my learning without taking inherent risks with some fish. Nobody can.
I don't want to stalemate myself by sitting atop a high horse, because it's a long ways to the ground.

;-]

My only definition of under stocking is, a single schooling fish which shows stress from being completely alone. I've seen that when a danio's tank mates eventually died, before I replenished a small tank.

very well put!

 

[CarvinSigX]

"technically" my 20G with 2 mbuna is overstocked. The fish can't set territories. my divider allows the blue one to survive, with a small section. We feel bad, but he enjoys sparring thru the egg crate. LOL. without that he's dead meat.
They're both very personable, and break the surface to eat from our fingers.
;-)
just kiddin w/you about rules. guess I have an african Betta.

That's not overstocked though, as long as they both have adequate room because they can still set up territories. However, you did it for their safety. No problem with that...IMO at least!

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