EricIvins;4467253; said:
how are they functionally extinct? I did a quick google on them and found 3 people selling them for less than $100. They can't be as rare as you say given this info.
Very interesting link
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how are they functionally extinct? I did a quick google on them and found 3 people selling them for less than $100. They can't be as rare as you say given this info.
snakeguy101;4467266; said:
Same goes with Mauremys Annamensis, who are again, functionally Extinct.......Just because you see them for sale, does't mean anything......These Turtles have been brought in since the early 80's, and large breeding groups have been put together before they were ever rare in the wild........A little research goes a long way, especially with Indo-Chinese Turtles.......
EricIvins;4467292; said:
breeding groups + large numbers + long term success with the species ≠ functionally extinct, I don't understand what you are trying to say.
snakeguy101;4467308; said:
Just because we have Turtles in the US doesn't do much for the Ecosystems over in Vietnam that are missing Turtles who are functionally extinct...........
Guess what? Hamiltonii are ESA listed, but yet, breeders in Floriduh and California produce 100s, if not 1000s a year..........
EricIvins;4467330; said:
All of which CAN be reintroduced into the wild if programs were set up to do so. just because this is not being done does not make them dysfunctional.
snakeguy101;4467382; said:
They can't be re-released since there is no wild founder stock to begin with. As in no fresh, locality specific, genetic material to work with.......Nothing like releasing animals that have no genetic familiarity with an area......... That in itself will make a re-release project fail before it even gets off the ground. Not to mention exposing any potential wild population left to pathogens they've never been exposed to.......
The problem also lies in the fact that with most of these Turtles, any potential suitable habitat has been over run with Humans, and Turtle soup is the word of the day.........
I also don't know where "dysfunctional" came from, as the Turtles themselves do alright........However, when they are functionally Extinct, there are pretty much none left in the Eco Sytems they used to inhabit.......That means no chance of any relic populations ever gaining a foothold again......
EricIvins;4467511; said:
Just because they dont have genetic familiarity with an area dosent mean that that it can not be brought back. As snakeguy said the problem is there is no breeding programs set up to do this. Just takes doing it in the right place at the right time with the right info.
Great link. Would love to get my hands on some of these turtles and start a breeding project with a few. Thanks for posting.
Etunes;4467733; said:
That's the whole point of a re-introduction project - To bring back the animals in an area that is now void of said specie..........
You bring back animals that are either multi-generational captive bred, or animals from a different area, the results are going to be dismal.......That alone has been proven time after time again, unless we're talking about Cane Toads or Brown Tree Snakes........
I agree with EricIvins in some points and disagree in others. First Chinemys nigricans. I am not aware of them being THAT endangered however is indeed possible they are that rare in the wild. However that is hardly the situation in captivity, Chinemys nigricans are produced by the many thousands every year if we have in account the efforts of European, American and Asian turtle breeders. Same thing happens with Ocadia sinensis and many other species. Zoos in Europe for example are freezing nigricans eggs because there is no where to put the offspring.
Now, your argument over why they cant be brougth back into the wild via cb stock is because of a combo of "domestication" of this species as they have been kept in captivity in several generations, they dont have recolection data so they could likely have a miscelaneus of genetics and specific adaptations to a specif locality have either been lost or diluted. And that putting asside desiase introduction potential for the native populations. Your conserns are LEGITIMATE, however in the world we live in we can no longer be that demanding as to what stock should be brough back and what should be saved. I rater save the maximun amount of species, even knowing that some are not 100% pure genetics then loosing them forever.
And there are many arguments as well why this could work.
As for domestication Im not conserned, even to in south east asia some "experiments" have come up here and here over the cross breeding of closelly related but diferent turtle taxa, most of the turtle species are relativelly uniform in their genetic profile. Thats what allows diferent turtle species that are separate for millions of years to cross breed. Even if the specimens came from diferent populations that could increase the genetic diversity of the founder stock and its chances of being sucessfull. Of course if there was still a relict population, extreme care would need to be used. In this case both for desiase and genetics profiles, things such as genetic finger printing could be of some very good use.
A good example of messed up genetics but with no catastrophic consequeces in turtles happend in I beleave Chesapeake Bay (?) with diamont back terrapins. After the trade of this turtles as food was stoped many dealers released the animals they had already cauth in there and many of this animals belonged to diferent subspecies then the native terrapin species. Now the bay has terrapins with a diversity of looks and genetic profiles but they do just fine. Even the cientists of the Charles Darwing foundation in the Galapagos are using intergrated tortoises to save already extinct in the pure form subspecies.
A good example how this can work is the case of peregrin falcons in North America. When they were reintroduced, animals of many diferent genetic stocks were used and gess what? They are relativelly uniform in looks (so no more then desired variability), they did just fine with the very few native peregrins left and they are triving now that DDT use was forbiten and they are full protected.
I gess a part of what Im trying to say is that when it comes to conservation nowadays we cant be very picky, every animal is precious and counts. And for finishing just let me tell you that nature doesant care for our lack of imagination. Asian turtles of several species evolved from VERY diferent genera interbreeding with each other. Cuora trifasciata was generally considered to be a very diverse species, now it was discovered that it was actually a complex of 3 diferent species one of which was a ANCESTRAL HIBRID that evolved into species, between Cuora galbinifrons amd Cuora pani! The reason it was lumped with trifasciata its because by a luck thing it resembles trifasciata even to genetically its completly diferent. If somebody tryed this cross the woule world would fall apart, the person was waisting genetics, its anti-natural, blá blá blá. Nature doesant care
Now, your argument over why they cant be brougth back into the wild via cb stock is because of a combo of "domestication" of this species as they have been kept in captivity in several generations, they dont have recolection data so they could likely have a miscelaneus of genetics and specific adaptations to a specif locality have either been lost or diluted. And that putting asside desiase introduction potential for the native populations. Your conserns are LEGITIMATE, however in the world we live in we can no longer be that demanding as to what stock should be brough back and what should be saved. I rater save the maximun amount of species, even knowing that some are not 100% pure genetics then loosing them forever.
And there are many arguments as well why this could work.
As for domestication Im not conserned, even to in south east asia some "experiments" have come up here and here over the cross breeding of closelly related but diferent turtle taxa, most of the turtle species are relativelly uniform in their genetic profile. Thats what allows diferent turtle species that are separate for millions of years to cross breed. Even if the specimens came from diferent populations that could increase the genetic diversity of the founder stock and its chances of being sucessfull. Of course if there was still a relict population, extreme care would need to be used. In this case both for desiase and genetics profiles, things such as genetic finger printing could be of some very good use.
A good example of messed up genetics but with no catastrophic consequeces in turtles happend in I beleave Chesapeake Bay (?) with diamont back terrapins. After the trade of this turtles as food was stoped many dealers released the animals they had already cauth in there and many of this animals belonged to diferent subspecies then the native terrapin species. Now the bay has terrapins with a diversity of looks and genetic profiles but they do just fine. Even the cientists of the Charles Darwing foundation in the Galapagos are using intergrated tortoises to save already extinct in the pure form subspecies.
A good example how this can work is the case of peregrin falcons in North America. When they were reintroduced, animals of many diferent genetic stocks were used and gess what? They are relativelly uniform in looks (so no more then desired variability), they did just fine with the very few native peregrins left and they are triving now that DDT use was forbiten and they are full protected.
I gess a part of what Im trying to say is that when it comes to conservation nowadays we cant be very picky, every animal is precious and counts. And for finishing just let me tell you that nature doesant care for our lack of imagination. Asian turtles of several species evolved from VERY diferent genera interbreeding with each other. Cuora trifasciata was generally considered to be a very diverse species, now it was discovered that it was actually a complex of 3 diferent species one of which was a ANCESTRAL HIBRID that evolved into species, between Cuora galbinifrons amd Cuora pani! The reason it was lumped with trifasciata its because by a luck thing it resembles trifasciata even to genetically its completly diferent. If somebody tryed this cross the woule world would fall apart, the person was waisting genetics, its anti-natural, blá blá blá. Nature doesant care
