Yeah, right now this store uses walnut on many lizards, including beardies (of all sizes), monitors, uromastyx, and leopard geckos. I've heard countless stories on how it can tear up their innards if swallowed, and the irritated cloaca thing, but are there really any documented cases in which this actually happened? That's what I'm trying to figure out. I'm having trouble finding real accounts in which these issues actually took place. So if anyone has, please give a descriptive account of your experience.
Walnut litter: Good or Bad?
- Thread starter Ophiuchus
- Start date
It can cause problems if high quantities are ingested, especially with smaller individuals. Overall though I have used it for many years myself, as well as many years for most of the reptiles at my work, and have had no issues with it. It is possible to have problems, but very unlikely. I think there are better options for many species, but I have not foudn it to be a bad option.
Calci-Sand is the same way, if consumed in large quantities, especially with small individuals, it can cause problems. But again, may years using it and no problems. Again, possible problems, but very unlikely. Agian, better options for many, but not necessarily a bad choice.
Calci-Sand is the same way, if consumed in large quantities, especially with small individuals, it can cause problems. But again, may years using it and no problems. Again, possible problems, but very unlikely. Agian, better options for many, but not necessarily a bad choice.
Then please do. Don't hold out what could be helpful information.
I never said either was perfect, but no substrate is perfect. Even solid substrates (paper towels, tiles, etc.) are not perfect because it limits the animal. Burrowing species can no longer burrow. Diggers can't dig. These things can cause immeasurable stress because they can't carry out the most natural of behaviors (like birds in cages too small to have any decent flight area). We can analyze the frequency of problems with walnut and Calci-sand, but we can't with these other factors. That doesn't mean the others are safe or okay. I have seen pictures of individuals with impaction from both of these substrates. But how often does that happen? Out of all of the people using these substrates on so many individuals, how often does it happen? People still feed mealworms, but those have been shown to chew up the insides of the animals that eat them, but it doesn't happen everytime. It is a matter of frequency and likelihood and whether those are 'safe' risks or not.
I never said either was perfect, but no substrate is perfect. Even solid substrates (paper towels, tiles, etc.) are not perfect because it limits the animal. Burrowing species can no longer burrow. Diggers can't dig. These things can cause immeasurable stress because they can't carry out the most natural of behaviors (like birds in cages too small to have any decent flight area). We can analyze the frequency of problems with walnut and Calci-sand, but we can't with these other factors. That doesn't mean the others are safe or okay. I have seen pictures of individuals with impaction from both of these substrates. But how often does that happen? Out of all of the people using these substrates on so many individuals, how often does it happen? People still feed mealworms, but those have been shown to chew up the insides of the animals that eat them, but it doesn't happen everytime. It is a matter of frequency and likelihood and whether those are 'safe' risks or not.
reptileguy2727;1224957; said:
THANK YOU! This has been my point the entire time (or one of them) and is in many ofmy other posts.
Ok, with my beardie, I told you about the walnut shell problem. That better be 'documented' enough for ya, it sure as hell was for me, not to mention him.
Now, with the calci sand. That stuff is POWDER. He dug around in it trying to carry out natural behaviors, which of course was impossible. It got so thick in the the air that when it settled, it got caked in his scales. I was 9 at the time, and when I finally noticed, it was too late. He was ORANGE all over and it would NOT come out. It was EMBEDDED in there, Im not sure how else to describe it. Anyway, when the time to shed came, spot by spot, the spines were gone. The 'frill' around the neck, a patch on the beard, his thighs and forelimbs, tail base, and side spikes are now little nubs. He barely looks like a beardie anymore. Ive recieved a lot of mouth about it, but I was a kid, I dont know what else to say except that I learned my lesson through his suffering.
Actually I've read the mealworm rumor was completely false. I forgot where I read it, but it seemed like a reliable source. And considering my mom feeds live adult mice to her frog with no problems, I don't think a mealworm could chew its innards out.
As for the walnut bedding, I've noticed the pieces are quite jagged. Maybe a snake can digest them if a few get in there, but I don't want to take risks like that so I choose not to use it. However, my mom has kept her hognose on walnut shells and I honestly can't find a damn thing wrong with that snake. No problems whatsoever.
That said, sometimes I get the feeling loconorc was hired by the aspen-shaving industry to tell everyone the evils of coconut fiber, walnut shells, and newspaper.
As for the walnut bedding, I've noticed the pieces are quite jagged. Maybe a snake can digest them if a few get in there, but I don't want to take risks like that so I choose not to use it. However, my mom has kept her hognose on walnut shells and I honestly can't find a damn thing wrong with that snake. No problems whatsoever.
That said, sometimes I get the feeling loconorc was hired by the aspen-shaving industry to tell everyone the evils of coconut fiber, walnut shells, and newspaper.
Lovespunaruond, its walnut I have a massive problem with. MOST other substrates have their place. Coconut FIBER (not bark) is great for tropical geckos, frogs, fire skinks and relatives, and many others. Newspaper band paper towels are great for 'quarentine' and and baby tanks. For the hundredth time, I have problems with walnut, carpet, and reptile bark. Thats about it.
Ok, I HAVE had problems with walnut, just because you havent doesnt mean no one else has. I respect your experience, why not vice versa?
I have NO IDEA why natural behaviors are denied to so many animals. Its not just through substrate either.
To me, substrate is all about natural behaviors. Sure they live without them, but they THRIVE with them. I dont mean just a pretty animal, its visible in their behavior. If were going to lock them up their whole life, at least give them something to do. Lets lock you in your living room with nothing but a blanket and a water fountain. Yeah. I dont care how hard to clean it is. I got time.
Byw, the mealworm myth, BS. Call mythbusters
Ok, I HAVE had problems with walnut, just because you havent doesnt mean no one else has. I respect your experience, why not vice versa?
I have NO IDEA why natural behaviors are denied to so many animals. Its not just through substrate either.
To me, substrate is all about natural behaviors. Sure they live without them, but they THRIVE with them. I dont mean just a pretty animal, its visible in their behavior. If were going to lock them up their whole life, at least give them something to do. Lets lock you in your living room with nothing but a blanket and a water fountain. Yeah. I dont care how hard to clean it is. I got time.
Byw, the mealworm myth, BS. Call mythbusters
loconorc;1225021; said:
Your right. Nothing 'natural' about being kept in a glass tank or vivarium.
As for the walnut shells, I'd never use em. They look bad, I imagine em to be quite harsh and it just doesn't entertain me. Whether the bad stories are true or not, I'd rather not risk it. M.O.
i have had reptiles (BDs and leos) on the walnut stuff for YEARS and never had any problems. no shed issues, no skin problems, cuts, impactions, rubbed off scales etc...i am not saying problems cant happen using this stuff, but i havnt experienced any in years. and keep in mind that you can find something wrong with ANY substrate if you look hard enough. as said, none are *perfect*, different species have different needs (i think that was covered earlier).
Loco, i think some of the problems you experienced with your bearded dragon might have had more to do with improper care (many things can cause skin problems) than the substrate alone.
i do agree with trying to mimic your animals habitat as close as one can in captivity, but in the end, you are keeping an animal in a glass/screen box thats not nearly as big as the space it would occupy and explore in the wild, feeding it a diet that is no where near as varied as it would be in the wild, and for many, making their animals a little bit too healthy (fat.)
if your animal is a healthy weight, active (although some species dont really do much, like pacmans), alert and eating well and looking good, what more could you do?
as for a 'natural substrate' leading to less stress etc etc...although some animals may need a specific substrate more than others (obligate burrowers perhaps) i think you are assuming too much to some degree. i have raised many leopard geckos on that walnut shell stuff, news paper/paper towels and now on a more natural dry soil substrate without any difference in growth, clutch size, sheds or anything else. if they are growing well and breeding...how stressed can they be??? do you think they could be "happier" on something more natural?
Loco, i think some of the problems you experienced with your bearded dragon might have had more to do with improper care (many things can cause skin problems) than the substrate alone.
i do agree with trying to mimic your animals habitat as close as one can in captivity, but in the end, you are keeping an animal in a glass/screen box thats not nearly as big as the space it would occupy and explore in the wild, feeding it a diet that is no where near as varied as it would be in the wild, and for many, making their animals a little bit too healthy (fat.)
if your animal is a healthy weight, active (although some species dont really do much, like pacmans), alert and eating well and looking good, what more could you do?
as for a 'natural substrate' leading to less stress etc etc...although some animals may need a specific substrate more than others (obligate burrowers perhaps) i think you are assuming too much to some degree. i have raised many leopard geckos on that walnut shell stuff, news paper/paper towels and now on a more natural dry soil substrate without any difference in growth, clutch size, sheds or anything else. if they are growing well and breeding...how stressed can they be??? do you think they could be "happier" on something more natural?
My point exactly. And for what its worth, many 'natural' things won't be possible, practical or as healthy in this 'box' no matter what material its made out of.
