Walnut litter: Good or Bad?

[loconorc]

I

AM

NOT

TALKING

ABOUT

NATURAL

SUBSTRATES!

Dude. I'm talking about NATURAL BEHAVIORS. Digging, egg laying, tunneling, things of that nature. In fact, 99% of the time I DISAGREE with the naturalistic setups. Less is more. Its that we limit them enough with tank space (within reason) so we might as well make that life as great as possible. Most people don't even breed them or plan to, for cryin' out loud.

If your animal is alive and breathing and youre satisfied, thats fine. Just know you can get a lot more from your pets when they are happy and stimulated. Trust me, you can tell.

Growing and breeeding doesnt mean your animal is at its peak of health. You can have a 3-legged monitor lizard kept on newpaper with a 90 degree basking spot inside a 4 foot cage and you would get eggs and LOTS OF THEM. Thats not the point. The difference between a healthy, stimulated, fulfilled animal is obvious.

 

[Jessica Dring]

First of, Lets get one thing straight. I'm not a 'dude'.

K. Actually, In your previous posts you were on about substrates aswell as everything else mate.

Digging and all that Jazz is for the most part, hard to achieve in typical setups. Besides. Being natural doesn't mean its the only thing that will make 'em happy. I think your obsessed about being bloody natural. Maybe you should be a naturalist

In captivity, natural isnt always the best thing for them as you said because of space and such. So what point are you trying to achieve. Providing means for them to burrow will take up even MORE space.

Btw. I don't. I think keeping animals in bare tanks with abit of natural substrate () and not much owt else is probably the worst. You want your animal stimulated? Give it something to do (of course aswell as all the neccasary temps etc).

As for breeding.. yeah because some people are mature and responible about it mate. Why would you breed green iguanas. You going to have loads of 10x4x6 custom vivs at the least then x the number of babies? Because you will be damn lucky if you find a home for two babies.

You intrugue me when you use the breeding argument as a for, (people dont even breed em for cryin at out) then against saying it doesnt mean your animal is in the peak of health. For the most part, animals dont just breed if you stick 'em together and you obviously have no experience if thats what you think. Yeah they're are exeptions but then there always are. Most animals need to be in the peak of health to breed.

For the record. I don't know many 3 legged monitor lizards kept on newspaper in a four foot cage that will breed. And even if it does it will more than likely retain the eggs.

Can we please get back to the actual reason this thread was started? You seem to make most threads stray by going on and on about animals being content and thriving, and peoples bad husbandry when by the sounds of things you havent done too well either. Now give it a rest will you!

 

[reptileguy2727]

These problems are relatively rare considering how many animals are on these substrates and for how long so many have been. So no animals should be allowed to dig (a VERY natural behavior for most) because very few have had problems on that substrate?

That is the first time I have heard of that type of problem with the Calci-Sand. That is not a problem with Calci-Sand, maybe you got some before they fixed that ( bad batch or something), but I have not had that issue or had anyone else tell me about anything like that. That is not the rule that dictates its use, it is an exception to it.

There have been known cases of mealworms eating up the insides and even eating their way out of animals. It is more likely with smaller animals (anoles, young leopard geckos, etc.), with larger animals they don't usually eat their way out, so it looks like all of a sudden the animal went down hill and died even though it had been perfectly healthy. Since in most cases like that a necropsy is not done we don't know how bad of a problem it really is. I have talked to a number of people who have seen it happen, some even watched the mealworm emerge from the animal's abdomen. Even here it is a rare thing, but I have talked to more people with problems with mealworms than people with substrate problems listed here, so from my experience mealworms are a bigger threat, yet people will feed those but not put the animal on Calci-Sand or walnut. And a frog eating mice does not mean mealworms can't chew up the insides of an animal (not really related at all).

 

[Vicious_Fish]

In my very young and early years of keeping reptiles I used crushed up walnut litter for bedding for some of my lizards. The stuff IMO was very unattractive and molded very quickly when wet so I didn't use it for long. All and all, there are better sources of reptile bedding out there. On a side note, Walnut tree species in general carry lots of tannic acid through out their systems. Many of the species give off toxins that kill other competitive plant species growing around them. I'm not sure if the English Walnut species fall into this category but it makes me wonder.

 

[Ophiuchus]

I know the mealworm thing is bogus. Usually, the lizard is fed mealworms in a shallow dish, out of which some mealworms crawl out and hide in the substrate, unbeknownst to the owner. The lizard may later die of a completely unrelated cause. Then the hding mealworms are attracted to the corpse. The owner eventually discovers his dead lizard, and sees mealworms in and around the body, and draws a somewhat logical, but ultimately wrong conclusion that the worms are the culprits. Most of these insectivorous lizards have digestive tracts perfectly capable of handling more nastier bugs than mealworms.

Loco, I do generally agree with you that, with the exception of breeding purposes and those with immense collections, setting up a more naturalistic environment for your herps is in the long run, more ideal for the animal's well-being (as well as easier/cheaper to maintain in my experience). I understand it's not as feasible for everyone, and certainly not for every herp species, either.

But everyone has to agree...it looks a lot better than the obligatory glass tank lined with aspen, a water bowl on one side and a cave on the other.

But any how, back to the topic at hand, I'm getting the general consensus here that walnut is not that bad if used correctly and changed out frequently to prevent mold growth. Some of you apparently have had no issues with it personally, but are reluctant to suggest for novice keepers. The rest are totally against it.

 

[Vicious_Fish]

I've had a little time today Ophiuchus to check the web about what other people think of the stuff. I can't really find anyone recommending the use of it. Most owners/breeders label it almost as bad as crushed corn cob bedding. It's undigestible and has sharp edges that can lock together with other pieces in the digestive tract and cause impactions.

It was probably invented by some Walnut Company owner guy who was looking for a way to get rid of all his walnut husks. "Hey, lets make it into animal bedding!" Anything for a buck!

 

[loconorc]

Feel how you like. I don't want to fuss about it any more. I need to let off on the debates for awhile.

When I put in double spaced caps like that, and you STILL dont get my point, thats aggrivating. I dont care if you disagree, thats your problem. But at least understand the other persons point of view.

I dont care if you use walnut bedding, but I know its caused serious problems for me. Okay? We cool?

 

[Ophiuchus]

Feel how you like. I don't want to fuss about it any more. I need to let off on the debates for awhile.

When I put in double spaced caps like that, and you STILL dont get my point, thats aggrivating. I dont care if you disagree, thats your problem. But at least understand the other persons point of view.

I dont care if you use walnut bedding, but I know its caused serious problems for me. Okay? We cool?

Who are you talking to exactly?

 

[reptileguy2727]

I am not talking about cases of dead lizards that are fed upon by mealworms, obviously those cases are not what I am talking about. I have talked to people who WATCHED IT AS IT HAPPENED. That doesn't mean they found a dead lizard and a mealworm was crawling around in it. It means they fed mealworms, watched, the lizard stopped moving around, and a mealworm emerged from what a minute ago was intact abdomen. I am talking about a vet who was brought a beardy with a bump on its stomach and when the vet went to drain the mass, a mealworm's head was right under the skin. Yes, their stomach can deal with it, usually. But mealworms are tough little things and every once in a rare while this happens. That doesn't mean every animal fed mealworms is going to die from this. Obviously with SOO many people feeding them and so few cases it is obviously rare, but it is not a myth or uran legend, it is true. No one's experience with reptiles including their lack of experience with this disproves this. No one's opinion and 'I have had beardies for 50 years and only fed them mealworms and it never happened' DISproves this. It only takes one case to prove that it can happen, and there is more than one case out there. If you choose to nto believe it, fine. I don't care. But it does happen.

This thread was about walnut. Walnut is fine for many species, at least past a certain size. Is it perfect? No. Are there better options for many of those species? Yes.

 

[darthbravo]

This may be a little off topic but since we are discussing substrates, what about the use of millet seed? Zilla has one out and i was wondering if it has similar problems to walnut?