want to start a...

[Ophiuchus]

Replacing stuff like what?

Replacing all the animals that keep getting eaten by cagemates. Not saying that GTPs will eat dart frogs, but for other reasons, I don't think this is a good idea. I recommend looking the recent thread about mixing species:

http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64392

GTPs live in Southeat Asia. Dart frogs are native to Central/South America. They would never see each other in the wild. Why anyone thinks its a good idea to mix them is beyond me...

...oh, that's right...they might look nice together! That makes all the difference!

 

[davo]

Replacing all the animals that keep getting eaten by cagemates. Not saying that GTPs will eat dart frogs, but for other reasons, I don't think this is a good idea. I recommend looking the recent thread about mixing species:

http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64392

GTPs live in Southeat Asia. Dart frogs are native to Central/South America. They would never see each other in the wild. Why anyone thinks its a good idea to mix them is beyond me...

...oh, that's right...they might look nice together! That makes all the difference!

they look nice seperately in two different vivs aswell
and i was always under the impressions that darts got their toxins from foods in particular ants.

 

[Jessica Dring]

The animals will NOT get eaten if you choose cage mates carefully. Like I said.. snakes are not really good cage mates for anything. They are too unpredictable and will occassionally have a snap at anything. Its just instinct like a dog chases a rabbit..
'...oh, that's right...they might look nice together! That makes all the difference'
Davo who the hell said its because they look nice together?!? Thats right NO ONE! So stop making useless comments for the sake of it. I myself recomended not to keep these with snakes, and no one has been saying... 'Oh they look nice together' so stop making silly and worthless assumptions and putting words in our mouth. He asked a question and we are answering it. I did say for him to PM me as to what he really wants in this set up so that I can reccomend species (from the same setup AND area (So your again, usless comment of 'GTPs live in Southeat Asia. Dart frogs are native to Central/South America. They would never see each other in the wild. Why anyone thinks its a good idea to mix them is beyond me...' is worthless!). You are defeating the object here, and having a rant simply because you need one. Go and find another thread to do it because we dont have time for people who put words in our mouths!

 

[Jessica Dring]

May I also remind you, if captive bred, these animals are NOT in the wild anymore, and have never known any different. These animals dont come across handling and being kept in tiny vivs in the wild, so again, another worthless comment you made there. Thats the point, these animals are no longer in the wild so you cannot go around saying what they are used to in there!

 

[Ophiuchus]

The animals will NOT get eaten if you choose cage mates carefully. Like I said.. snakes are not really good cage mates for anything. They are too unpredictable and will occassionally have a snap at anything. Its just instinct like a dog chases a rabbit..
'...oh, that's right...they might look nice together! That makes all the difference'
Davo who the hell said its because they look nice together?!? Thats right NO ONE! So stop making useless comments for the sake of it. I myself recomended not to keep these with snakes, and no one has been saying... 'Oh they look nice together' so stop making silly and worthless assumptions and putting words in our mouth. He asked a question and we are answering it. I did say for him to PM me as to what he really wants in this set up so that I can reccomend species (from the same setup AND area (So your again, usless comment of 'GTPs live in Southeat Asia. Dart frogs are native to Central/South America. They would never see each other in the wild. Why anyone thinks its a good idea to mix them is beyond me...' is worthless!). You are defeating the object here, and having a rant simply because you need one. Go and find another thread to do it because we dont have time for people who put words in our mouths!

Umm...I actually said those things in the post directly before Davo's...he was quoting me. That last comment about "they look nice together" was sarcasm, if you weren't able to catch it. I was poking fun at the idea that the keeper's aesthetic tastes were more important than the well-being of his animals, which is pure hogwash.

I'm not arguing for argument's sake, either. I would implore you to read all the points made in the thread I linked to, before you come up with such rash notions about mixing species.

May I also remind you, if captive bred, these animals are NOT in the wild anymore, and have never known any different. These animals dont come across handling and being kept in tiny vivs in the wild, so again, another worthless comment you made there. Thats the point, these animals are no longer in the wild so you cannot go around saying what they are used to in there!

Yes, they may have never experienced the wild firsthand, but reptiles (among other exotic pets) are not even remotely domesticated to the same level as dogs, cats, and livestock. Those animals have been kept by man for thousands of years, but we've only been keeping reptiles for a few hundred at most. A domesticated dog is going to react differently to things than a fox or a wolf. However, a CB python or frog or lizard is still going to behave as a wild one would behave, and it will still react to certain situations in the same way its wild counterpart would react. It will be many hundreds of years before we can think about having a clear separation of "domesticated" snakes and wild ones. There's simply too much instinctual programming to affect.

"You can take the tiger out of the jungle, but you can't take the jungle out of the tiger!"

 

[Jessica Dring]

Ok, firstly whats the point using past threads quotes on here? Not all of us have been on that long..
It wasnt easy to read sarcasm mate so yano dont see the point in using it meself.

Yes, they may have never experienced the wild firsthand, but reptiles (among other exotic pets) are not even remotely domesticated to the same level as dogs, cats, and livestock. Those animals have been kept by man for thousands of years, but we've only been keeping reptiles for a few hundred at most. A domesticated dog is going to react differently to things than a fox or a wolf. However, a CB python or frog or lizard is still going to behave as a wild one would behave, and it will still react to certain situations in the same way its wild counterpart would react. It will be many hundreds of years before we can think about having a clear separation of "domesticated" snakes and wild ones. There's simply too much instinctual programming to affect.

"You can take the tiger out of the jungle, but you can't take the jungle out of the tiger!"

No one is saying they are domesticated like dogs or cats are they!?! Haha there we go again with those silly accusations. No of course they arent domesticated like that of dogs and cats. But just try picking up a wild boa or python, and try picking one up in captivity, they will not be as defensive. This shows they are domesticated.. to the standard of being sold in the pet trade. In reply to your dogs and wolves/foxes example. Lol, What does a dog do if it cannot escape/hide and is in fear? Bite. So these animals do react much the same in reality. If you mean how they react to people or people situations well, haha, sorry to say mate but wolves arent born in humans homes! Though it has been done (and proved) that when they are, the pups grow to react much the same as dogs do! Im not going to get into a big argument about this because i simply cba, though I know I will make my point made. You are really defeating the object of the topic discussed and are swaying further and further from it. We were not talking about domestication were we? Now look where we are.. a ruined thread! All I said is, despite you 'thoughts' on what they would come across in the wild, it wouldnt actually matter because they never known different and are no longer 'wild' as you mean it. And confirming this is the fact they live 'healthily' to a degree, in vivariums and to be handled and fed foods that are only subtantial to that of what they would eat in the 'wild'
Get my drift of what I'm trying to say
No use comparing them to their wild counterparts, is what I'm saying. Of course they stil have instinct etc but this does not make them 'wild'

 

[Jessica Dring]

sorry Davo I meant Ophiuchus

 

[TheBloodyIrish]

Reptiles will always be wild. They can't be domesticated -- only sociable animals can be domesticated.

Now that being said -- it is not a good idea to mix snakes with other reptiles UNLESS it is an insectivorous like the Smooth or Rough Green Snakes or simply too small to attack a bigger reptile.

Even then, it is still not a good idea to mix any reptile at all -- unless you're one of those ones that are obsessed with display tanks like some of the European dart frog keepers who keep them with tree pythons and geckos.

Now, I had one professor talk about PDF in class -- if I remember correctly.. they traced it back to the insects. However those insects don't naturally produce the toxins. The native tribes of the Pacific Ocean found out that you can extract the same PDF toxin from some kind of beetle. It is just a matter of finding what plant that those insects are consuming. Now... remember, those tribes have no contact with the South American tribes.

 

[Ophiuchus]

Ok, firstly whats the point using past threads quotes on here? Not all of us have been on that long..

I didn't quote directly from another thread; that's why I posted a link to it. The issues discussed in that thread is very close to those in this one (before I even joined it, BTW), so I felt that people should have a educated perspective on this issue before spouting out their opinions that aren't based on anything substantial.

But just try picking up a wild boa or python, and try picking one up in captivity, they will not be as defensive. This shows they are domesticated.. to the standard of being sold in the pet trade.

What about WC specimens that "tame down" after being in captivity for a while? "Methinks" you're confusing domestication with conditioned behavior. Domestication is a near dependence on mankind by entire generations, wheras conditioning is on a individual basis; i.e. one animal simply learns that humans aren't a threat, and tolerates their presence. You plop the said animal back into its native habitat (CB or not), it will go back on its instincts and survive just as well as if it were in the wild all its life.

Lol, What does a dog do if it cannot escape/hide and is in fear? Bite. So these animals do react much the same in reality.

That's simply "flight or fight," sister, a very primeval instinct. This doesn't help your case any; it just shows that domestication can't change everything, and maybe Canis domesticus isn't as domesticated as we thought!

If you mean how they react to people or people situations well, haha, sorry to say mate but wolves arent born in humans homes! Though it has been done (and proved) that when they are, the pups grow to react much the same as dogs do!

Once again, conditioned behavior, not domestication. Example: if you were to introduce a deer to a family of golden retreivers, then depending on their personality, they would be fearful, ignorant, in the very least, probably reluctant to go near it. You put that same deer with a pack of wolves? Well, you see my point. Wolves know exactly what do with a deer. True, some dogs are trained to go after deer and other animals, but its exactly that...training, a form of conditioning.

i simply cba

"CBA?" Cannot Be Annoyed?...aggravated? Sorry, that's a new acronym for me.

You are really defeating the object of the topic discussed and are swaying further and further from it. We were not talking about domestication were we? Now look where we are.. a ruined thread!

Rubbish! We're merely looking at the broader scope of the issue, than just simply dealing with the intitial question of whether GTPs should be kept with dart frogs. In fact, it was stonecat that first brought up the issue of mixing any different species together. I understand opinions differ, but the other thread I mentioned does relate to this one, so I posted its link. Based on your reactions thus far, I gather you've yet to read it. Please do...you may learn something. But I repeat myseff anyway...

Once again, I'm not sure what would happen if a GTP and dart frogs were kept together. But as I've mentioned in other threads, mixing species do not benefit the animals in any way at all. It is only for the benefit of the keeper because:

A.) he hasn't the space/money for a second cage
B.) he's simply too lazy to upkeep a second cage...and/or...
C.) he lacks the patience to wait until he can change A or B

...and by choosing to put these animals together, he's willing to compromise their well-being simply to benefit himself. "Get my drift of what I'm trying to say "

All I said is, despite you 'thoughts' on what they would come across in the wild, it wouldnt actually matter because they never known different and are no longer 'wild' as you mean it. And confirming this is the fact they live 'healthily' to a degree, in vivariums and to be handled and fed foods that are only subtantial to that of what they would eat in the 'wild'
Get my drift of what I'm trying to say
No use comparing them to their wild counterparts, is what I'm saying. Of course they stil have instinct etc but this does not make them 'wild'

Once more (sigh), you're thinking in pure absolute terms; i.e. if the said animal is living a healthy life in captivity, then it must be domesticated. Not necessarily so. Read my earlier comments on conditioned behavior.

 

[Jessica Dring]

What the hell are you going on about south american tribes for? Who gives a **** what tribe it is that tips their darts with these frogs secretions. So I resume, right, it is NOT plants they get it from (theoretically). Like I said.. snakes arent good companion animals that has already been said TheBloodyIrish, so no point starting on that one.

'Reptiles will always be wild. They can't be domesticated -- only sociable animals can be domesticated. '
Where is your proof?
Now, soppose, In efforts to prove this theory wrong, it was said NO MORE WC'S and in the future we would benefit from reptiles the same way we do from dogs etc, so therefor we must begin domestication, I think you will find your theory wrong. Within time, huge efforts (as I am not saying this would be easy or quick) they would eventually, become even more domesticated to a degree. Reptiles (cb) are no longer 'wild'. I think you need to rethink your words. Wild, would be letting each and every 'wild' (as you so boldy describe them) reptiles go, and them surviving, on their own, without ANY human interference. This simply will not happen (even if let go in their own origin). So you are quite simply, wrong, reptiles are no longer 'wild' in the way that you mean (not the cb ones anyway). And as for sociable, lmao, it really makes no difference! Animals that are social are social with their own KIND, do you see cows being interactive and sociable with horses, goats, sheep, dogs, fish etc? Nope. Yeah, so makes no difference. Oh but for the record, reptiles are sociable, they must be to breed. And look at those that live together eg: turtles, tortoises (some) crocodiles, (you will see them come together to help bring down extremely large prey) and things of the sort.

Even then, it is still not a good idea to mix any reptile at all -- unless you're one of those ones that are obsessed with display tanks like some of the European dart frog keepers who keep them with tree pythons and geckos.

So your saying it is then a good idea to mix them if you are? lmao!

There is no problem in this, it is all part of being held captive that these animals suffer.