want to start a...

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What the hell are you going on about south american tribes for? Who gives a **** what tribe it is that tips their darts with these frogs secretions. So I resume, right, it is NOT plants they get it from (theoretically). Like I said.. snakes arent good companion animals that has already been said TheBloodyIrish, so no point starting on that one.
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I am just saying they think it's from a plant due to the discovery they made with a tribe in New Guinea who used the same toxin from a beetle. How could the tribe known that? Simple, they just know from the knowledge of their local surroundings.

Because of that discovery, people are starting to theorize that is not from the ants -- but rather those beetles can be found worldwide. Some of them are going even further and theorizing that it is from the plants that are being consumed by the PDF's prey since there are PDF that are too small to eat the beetle.

You need to look up the definition of domestication. Many species of fish had been bred for centuries, and we don't consider them as domesticated except for goldfish and koi. We consider animals to be domesticated when they are tame from birth. There is not a single reptile species that is tame from the very first second they are hatched or born. They still retract that wild instinct. We just take the captive-bred hatchings and CONDITION them to their behaviour. A puppy will naturally take to a human, but it can still be conditioned to become a rogue dog.

If you look at different domesticated animals, you will note that all of them are part of what we considered as highly-advanced social order such as a swarm, a herd, a flock or a pack.

Now -- with my point about the Europeans, it was just a snide comment at their hobby. It was not meant to be serious.
 
Oh dear. We do want an argument.
Firstly, you are one to comment on sprouting about things not related to the topic, arent you!?! Nope.

Secondly, No I am NOT getting confused with conditioned behaviour.. dont you tell me what I am and am not getting confused with, or I'm really going to see my arse here. We are not talking about WC thats a whole other matter, sorry but your straying again. Utter bull**** and worthlessness. Yes, you are right about the taking from the wild and 'taming down' but, look at the humble corn snake in captivity, it has to be THE most 'domesticated' (as a reptile could get), and you would certainly see a difference in a 'tamed down wc' individual and a wild caught.

Thirdly, Fight or flight is a REACTION AND AN INSTINCT, so its not helping YOUR case reffering dogs and wolves NOT MINE love. And you have just embarrassed yourself their by saying : 'Canis domesticus isn't as domesticated as we thought!' Lol, yet you were reffering to these as domesticated, and trying to prove a point to domesticated reptiles with this. Sorry but, I think if I were you now, I'd be extremely embarrassed.

Fourthly,
'Once again, conditioned behavior, not domestication. Example: if you were to introduce a deer to a family of golden retreivers, then depending on their personality, they would be fearful, ignorant, in the very least, probably reluctant to go near it. You put that same deer with a pack of wolves? Well, you see my point. Wolves know exactly what do with a deer. True, some dogs are trained to go after deer and other animals, but its exactly that...training, a form of conditioning.'

Sorry, I simply dont understand this post, You are chatting **** hun. Not trying to be a complete nob here, but if you explain this in terms of dogs and wolves, I might be able to understand it. May I also stress, conditioning is not much different from domesticating, whilst I will admit it does have differences, look at what your saying. Domesticating is simply, conditioning over a much longer period, therefor you have short-term domesticating (or conditioning).


No problem, it simply means 'cant be arsed' :)

fifthly, I will not read that thread, because im on this one and on many other websites, and it doesnt interest me. Your right, I probably would learn something, your attitude comes across that you think you have nothing to learn, sorry if you dont you are, but thats how you come across. Listen for once, and accept abit of critisism (as I have) and YOU might learn something too.

he hasn't the space/money for a second cage
B.) he's simply too lazy to upkeep a second cage...and/or...
C.) he lacks the patience to wait until he can change A or B

No I dont get your drift, because this is UTTER BULL****. HE IS NOT LAZY NOR LACKING PATIENCE! SO STOP MAKING ANOTHER STUPID ACCUSATION. Have you ever thought, that IF, AND ONLY IF, done correctly, it can be pleasing (and actually beneficial in many ways to the animals eg: more space... they get to be more 'wild' (since thats what you think anyway:)) in this setup? I myself, considering I had the space, time and money would opt for this method myself, but quite simply I dont. I had tortoises with my green iguana, none of them suffered ill effects, and whilst I did save money (still money though to run the whole cage.. i might add ) I had my tortoises in a setup before this, and I thought they would appreciate more room, which they did. So was I lazy? No. Thats your opinion because you do not agree with the method presented, though I certainly see no wrong in this, if all these animals are compatible (to say the least) this INCLUDES with eachother, with habitat and conditions.
 
I am just saying they think it's from a plant due to the discovery they made with a tribe in New Guinea who used the same toxin from a beetle. How could the tribe known that? Simple, they just know from the knowledge of their local surroundings.

Because of that discovery, people are starting to theorize that is not from the ants -- but rather those beetles can be found worldwide. Some of them are going even further and theorizing that it is from the plants that are being consumed by the PDF's prey since there are PDF that are too small to eat the beetle.

TheBloodyIrish: I apologise then. I thought you were going to start a thread about different tribes, I shouldnt have had a go about this, and thanks for your input where they are learning this comes from. I did not understand what you where saying properly. However, I meant all along, these anphibians dont get their posion directly from plants, as suggested. I personally, have reasons to believe it is self made, because these animals are BORN with (well born to produce) colours that indicate they are poisonous.. enough said. But I really dont want to get into that because there will be huge arguments about it, as nothing on that subject is for definate:)

No I dont need to rethink or re-read domestication, because this can never be shortened into a term used in a dictionary and left at that, sorry to say. How ever, I accept I may have come across that I was suggesting domestication means 'tame' So sorry if I did come across as this, I never meant that. Though I disagree with' no reptiles are tame from birth' Lets first, look at 'tame' this simply means 'puts up with handling without aggression' So, considering this, think of leopard geckos, bearded dragons, spiders (chilean roses in particular) and royal pythons (who often need, if any, next to NONE taming). You would consider these animals to be 'tame' when born, so yes, you would actually consider these animals domesticated if, your statement is true. Good point though :D
I didnt see a comment about europeans :S lol
 
(sighs) Okay...I'm done with this one....like arguing with a brick.

"You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink."

One: If you are so bored (I am pointing to the (Sighs) you keep making.. feel welcome to leave this thread.. no one is forcing you to be a prick.

Two: Are you 'done with this' because you cant find anything to make more points about, if indeed, you were concerned for animals welfare, (as you suggested was at a risk due to the habitat being suggested made for them) then you would WANT to prove me wrong, so others could see these animals were at risk.
I rest my case :)
 
When you decided to comment about my reserved policy about mixing herps, I pointed to the Europeans that were keeping PDFs with other type of lizards and snakes.

Of course, I am guilty of mixing them -- but in my defense, it just happens. I keep my vivariums open -- except for gecko's vivariums. Somehow house geckos get in into my vivariums all the time. I don't keep, well buy I means, house geckos. I am still puzzled why they are always in every building I live in. The same applies for cornsnakes -- but they cause no problems... you just find them in people's basements.

I used to pick out geckos and put them in spare tanks, but now I give up.
Even if I cover the display vivariums, the geckos keep finding a way in them. So, I just let them go and leave as they wish.
 
Jessica Dring;801121; said:
Two: Are you 'done with this' because you cant find anything to make more points about, if indeed, you were concerned for animals welfare, (as you suggested was at a risk due to the habitat being suggested made for them) then you would WANT to prove me wrong, so others could see these animals were at risk.
I rest my case :)
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I care deeply. It's just so futile to make people see their mistakes sometimes.

The sighs are just a reaction to knowing that I've done all I can to make people see the light, and also from knowing that its not enough.
 
Oh onto the post. Europeans. Hmm I think you will find others than just 'europeans' keep animals this way, and that alot more in your own country, are also to blame for keeping animals incorrectly. TheBloodyIrish, would keeping your vivs open not cause problems for your animals inside them (eg keeping conditions right etc)? Not making a stabb at you, I'm simply wondering lol
 
Ok Ophiuchus, I get your point. Fair enough:)
But, can I ask, what do I need to see the light on? What mistake am I PERSONALLY making? Because those sighs were undoubtadly made at me. I see the way I keep my animals in no way wrong, (or different, is a better way of putting it, to the way you keep your animals) and since you dont know me or how I keep my pets neither, I feel you are unable to comment on me seeing the 'light', as it were, if, indeed, this were aimed at me (apologies if it was not).
I also get the impression you see nothing you do concerning your animals wrong. The first step into successfull animal keeping is seeing, you cant do everything right, and will always make mistakes. Once you accept this, you then go on to learn from and NOT make these mistakes in the future. Its the only way to keep reptiles, it has to be learnt. Sorry if you dont mean to come across this way, it just seems you have that kind of snotty/head up your backside attitude that see's nothing wrong in what they do. Though it may sound it, I'm not trying to have a go now, I'm just trying to educate (and help YOU see the light;)) that, if you didnt come across that, people will (a given fact) be more willing to listen and put your theories into practise, so consider it advice, or well- meaning help, if you will
:):):)
 
Nah, the Europeans know what they are doing. We just don't suggest it since those types of vivariums (when it is properly done) are high-maintenance. For most of them -- that is the only vivarium that they maintain. I have seen some that are done properly locally, but the owners just tear them down after two to three months because it was just too much for them. You gotta admit, the average Canadian or American does not have the time to devote to such a such big task. In the North American culture, it is quantity -- not quality that matter... if you know what I means.


Keeping my vivariums open is not a problem since
I have hydrogears installed to keep track of the humidity inside the tank -- and as well as the room. I only had one problem with my setup, and that was when people used to put stuff such as beer or another critter in them which caused unnatural death. I just make the vivariums higher so people can't reach the opening. Amazingly, the vivariums can maintain themselves when they are 8 feet tall.
 
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