Weird behavior and tank size question.

[FishDogg]

I need some clarification on this statement? So a feeder fish has no nutritional value? Like feeding plastic or something that won’t digest? Why can't they make that kind of thing for me? Like a "no nutritional value pizza???? Crap, I would lose weight eating pizza.

Also the parasite thing: Would you say 6 out of 10 times you put feeders in, the fish get parasites? 5 out of 10 would be half the time but your saying "more often than not" so 6 or maybe even 7 times out of 10 feeder fish are putting parasites in the tank. Well the OP's bullhead has parasites for sure and it's about to starve to death! lol

The risks involved in using feeder fish are high and the nutritional value in feeders is very low.

Feeder goldfish purchased from a local fish store are not cared for well and can carry a myriad of disease such as bacteria, virus and parasites, which can be transmitted to the fish who eat them either by being in the tank or by being ingested. They have no nutritional value and a high fat content. They contain large amounts of thiaminase, which is an enzyme that breaks down thiamin (vitamin B1). Consuming too much thiaminase develops a B1 deficiency, which can lead to illness or even death.

Other feeders such as guppy’s or convicts have more nutritional value than goldfish and do not have the fat content but there is still the risk of transmitting disease especially if they are purchased from a local fish store. Raising your own feeders can eliminate some of the danger but can be expensive in the long run. Remember that you have to house and feed these fish until they are large enough to be called feeders.

If you must use feeders, whether or not they are store bought or raised at home they should be quarantined for at least a month before they are fed to other fish.

There is a theory that feeder fish may also promote aggression in the fish consuming them. Fish such as large cichlids who have been fed feeders may view all fish as food thus making it difficult to keep other fish in the same tank. There is no conclusive evidence that this is correct.

Then there are the ethical and moral aspects of feeding one animal to another when, in most cases it is not necessary. Granted there are some cases where the fish we keep, as hobbyists require live food but there are other alternatives to feeders.

A better alternative to feeders is insects or worms but both of these present problems as well. Crickets a favorite of large cichlids can be purchased at a local pet store but can transmit disease as well. Worms found in the garden are usually safe but there is always the risk that they have been sprayed with pesticides. Red worms are another favorite and can be raised in a compost heap and that’s good for the environment.
(TheOscarSpot.com)
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Disadvantages of using feeder fish

Many aquarists view the use of feeder fish as cruel and unnecessary, arguing that the feeder fish is introduced into a small tank it has no chance to escape, and such a contrived situation cannot be considered “natural” in any meaningful sense. Most predatory species that eat live fish can also be weaned onto dead alternatives, so that the use of feeder fish in most situations tends to be because the aquarist wants to use them rather than needs to use them. Some of the species used as feeder fish (goldfish and rosy red minnows) contain high quantities of thiaminase, an enzyme that destroys vitamin B1 and when fed in large quantities cause nutritional imbalances. When bred and held in an overcrowded or otherwise sub-optimal environment, they may also be likely to carry bacterial infections and parasites, which can be passed along to any fish that eat them.[1][2] A large disadvantage of using feeder fish, particularly goldfish, is that they do not actually simulate what tropical fish eat in the wild.[citation needed] The only safe fish to use as feeders are home-raised livebearers (mollies, platys, guppies)
((Wikipedia.org))

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The Petstore Feeder Tank:
These are the first problem in the long line of feeder fish problems. These tanks are often barely kept up. Include no gravel or other substrate option and are not maintained on a daily basis. The tanks are often not part of the central filtration system that is used in most petstores. The tanks are generally separately filtered with a filter that is barely big enough to run the tank. The feeders are packed in like sardines and at times have more than 5 inches of fish per every gallon of water. The high amount of fish, minimal tank maintenance and non adequate filtration allow stress to develop which increases the risk of disease-borne illnesses that can rapidly spread throughout the tank. As the fish leave the petstore and go into your tank the diseases are transferred and introduced into your beloved tank. A fast spreading disease could wipe out your entire tank in a matter of days.

The Nutritional Value of Goldfish/Rosy Reds/Comets, and Guppies:
All of the above mentioned fish are very high in fatty content and include almost no if not any nutritional value to your fish that you are feeding them too. The high fatty content allows rapid development of overweight or overfeed fish and includes the development of fatty liver disease in many bigger Cichlids that are feed these. A fish that is overweight or develops fatty liver disease does not properly digest foods adequately, uses less protein from valuable food and turns more into waste. An improper aquatic diet also induces stress in the fish and can cause complete coloration loss in many carnivorous fish. The higher stress increases the chance of the fish’ disease prevention systems (immune systems) to broke down and deplete harmful bacteria. With a lowered immune system even the development of ich is extremely hard to treat as the fish are more susceptible to the disease and the meds.

Alternatives to Feeder Fish:
There are far more and far better alternatives to feeding your fish feeders. Crickets or other terrestrial insects are a common diet of most carnivorous fish species. They have less chance of harboring diseases or infections and provide much more protein that a feeder would. Terrestrial insects are also much lower in fat content than a normal feeder limiting the development of fatty liver disease or overweight fish. There are also other types of foods that are adequate to feed your fish. These include bloodworms, brine shrimp, shrimp, mysis shrimp, krill, herring, tubifex worms, or daphnia.

Not feeding your fish feeder fish from a petstore will increase your fish’ coloration from better nutrition. It will also increase your fish’ strength to deter diseases, bacteria, and lengthens there life. It allows bacteria and fungal infections not to be transferred into your tank and also keeps the aggression level of your fish to a minimum making an overall more peaceful tank.

Live foods should be used at a minimum as a great quality pellet like Hikari, NLS, or Omega One should be used as the fishes stable to their highly nutritional diet...
(http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/fishfood/feederfish.php)
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I guess pick your poison on your reading. I just did a little more research on what I have learned from my LFS.

 

[lolpard]

Here is my problem with dry or non sinking foods. I put them in and if the fish does not eat them they become a stinky mess on the bottom and not easy to remove. I will wait until he appears to be begging at the front of the tank then drop them in. He will eat a few but rarely vacuums the ones that fall to the bottom.

If I put feeder fish in the feeders eat the crud or excess food and eventually become dinner themselves.

I do not think there is a practical way to force feed a bullhead.

My reason for posting is that the cat apparently decided one night to kill everybody in the tank and I thought this was really weird as he only ate one of the dead ones the next day a little while after I found the massacre. I have come to the conclusion that it was either aggression or being territorial which in my book are two different things.

The current plan is to try again to feed him pellets and if that does not work to find a bait and tackle and buy him some earthworms. IF neither of those work to try a couple of feeders but not as many as last time (10) to cut down on any territorial tendencies. I am not interested in having another (feeder) tank in my limited space so I guess I will just muddle along and try whatever comes to mind.

One other strange thing...he did seem to enjoy pushing the largest dead body around in the tank so maybe he would like a toy to push around. I am experimenting trying to find something with neutral buoyancy.

 

[lolpard]

One of the ironic things in this post is that Pizza is almost the perfect food. You get your bread, your vegetables, meat and dairy all in one food. Too bad there is a ton of fat and salt.

Recently a man lost 27 lbs eating crappy food, twinkies and fast food, but he stayed below a certain amount of calories per day.

So with humans you just never know.

 

[Industrial]

After plenty of reading myself, I have found the biggest problems with feeder fish, is that they are mostly cyprinids which do contain thiaminase. Most of the fish these are fed to, never eat minnows or carp so they have never evolved to utilize the proper nutrients. In the wild, most American and Asian fish though eat mostly cyprinids and they are fine. You cannot provide a fish with a healthier food than it eats in the wild.

Since bullheads eat minnows and other fish, I would feed him preferably bait store minnows or rosy reds. Now both these fish are probably near starvation point, so it would be a good idea to set up a 10g rubbermaid container somewhere with even a small sponge filter and feed the feeders like you would a normal fish, so they can bulk up a little bit and become more nutritional since they have food in their system.

Feeding a convict or a guppy to a predator from a different continent is like feeding krill to any freshwater fish. It would be a nice energy rich treat, but it doesn't have the content that an American fish evolved to eat.

As for goldfish, I would stay away from those. Their nutritional values is far from the carp and it is close to 0.

 

[lolpard]

He is being a pain today. Just did a 50% water change last night and he is looking pretty perky. But the shrimp pellets are just dissolving on the bottom. Think I will try to find a bait shop today...sadly worms cost a lot more than goldfish and are much smaller....

This little guy grew from a 1 inch fry to a big beautiful boy on mostly shrimp pellets. I do not think there are shrimp in Big Bear lake....but somehow he grew and thrived until the other night. He still looks great in spite of now many days of no eating....Brat.

 

[warmouth]

I don't think so. It's like empty calories. You wouldn't lose any weight, because you're intaking food, but said food has very little nutrition (vitamins and minerals). You can still digest it (the way fish can still digest goldfish), but you're not getting any bang for your buck. You'd end up both fat and anemic, with scurvy, rickets, marasmus, kwashiorkor, etc.

Good post ....some feeders have more nutritional value than others, and its always good to vary their diet like they would eat in the wild.

 

[lolpard]

Got him some minnows. From Petsmart. They use a central filter. And the fish look pretty healthy. Put 10 in the tank and today there appears to be one live and one dead. I will have to push around the plants later to make sure there are not more dead ones. Got nightcrawlers too....At least it appears that he is willing to eat again. It is pretty cold here too so maybe he is just slowing down some. He looks great though, just kinda scary when they don't eat for a while.