What are you feeding YOUR fish?!
- Thread starter xEchOx
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Right? That same person is cramming their face with bk and milkshakes lol. Your fish will out live you!
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http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?504763-Cheap-plants-less-nitrate!-POTHOS
*Go S. Vettel #1 rb8--2 MORE RACES LEFT! SEE YOU IN TEXAS BOYS! LET'S MAKE IT 3 BACK TO BACK WDC!*
Man I never thought about it like that lol I just went to town on a bunch of chinese food tonight too 
Of course everything can be better, no one has ever stated that pet food can't be improved upon, including fish food. But these improvements cost $$$, and that $$$ trickles back down to the consumer and no matter how great a product may be there is a breaking point as to how much the average consumer will pay.
Imported fish meal (into the USA) can also be ethoxyquin free, you must have forgotten about that big frozen land mass to the north of ya'll. Also, one is only kidding themself if they think that they will ever know with 100% certainty which fish food contains ethox (among other things), and which do not. I can tell you with 100% certainty that some of the foods listed on your website, kmuda, where you state they are ethox free, do in fact contain ethox. (in more than 1 ingredient) I'm not going to point any fingers, or attempt to explain things any further than that. Feel free to believe whatever you want.
Apparently AAFCO don't have a problem with fish food manufacturers using terms outside of just "fish meal", as this has been taking place in North America for decades. Not a single peep from State agriculture boards, the USDA, FDA, APHIS, or the fine folks at AAFCO. So if someone actually uses a definitive type of fish meal, such as herring meal, no one is stopping them from utilizing that term on their fish food label. This subject to "stop sale action" comment, for something like that is utter nonsense.
There are ingredients such as spirulina that do not even have an approved AAFCO ingredient description, yet are allowed by AAFCO in commercial fish food, and are allowed by AAFCO to be listed on fish food labels. Outside of a couple of American producers of spirulina, I'm not even sure how many manufacturers of this ingredient have GRAS (Generally Recognized as Safe) status? Nor does it appear that anyone from AAFCO is checking the source of any of this spirulina.
When it comes to AAFCO & other officials within the pet food industry (specifically fish food) there are areas of high priority enforcement, and areas that fall under low priority enforcement. (with fish food, mostly the latter)
Detection of the hepatotoxic microcystins in 36 kinds of cyanobacteria Spirulina food products in China.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18569007
This is exactly why trust, and the test of time, become such important factors when it comes to pet food. Every single last ingredient has its pros, and cons, and something as simple as the source of a companies spirulina could potentially place a pet at risk due to contamination of microcystin toxins, or heavy metals from the water where it was grown.
Imported fish meal (into the USA) can also be ethoxyquin free, you must have forgotten about that big frozen land mass to the north of ya'll. Also, one is only kidding themself if they think that they will ever know with 100% certainty which fish food contains ethox (among other things), and which do not. I can tell you with 100% certainty that some of the foods listed on your website, kmuda, where you state they are ethox free, do in fact contain ethox. (in more than 1 ingredient) I'm not going to point any fingers, or attempt to explain things any further than that. Feel free to believe whatever you want.
Apparently AAFCO don't have a problem with fish food manufacturers using terms outside of just "fish meal", as this has been taking place in North America for decades. Not a single peep from State agriculture boards, the USDA, FDA, APHIS, or the fine folks at AAFCO. So if someone actually uses a definitive type of fish meal, such as herring meal, no one is stopping them from utilizing that term on their fish food label. This subject to "stop sale action" comment, for something like that is utter nonsense.
There are ingredients such as spirulina that do not even have an approved AAFCO ingredient description, yet are allowed by AAFCO in commercial fish food, and are allowed by AAFCO to be listed on fish food labels. Outside of a couple of American producers of spirulina, I'm not even sure how many manufacturers of this ingredient have GRAS (Generally Recognized as Safe) status? Nor does it appear that anyone from AAFCO is checking the source of any of this spirulina.
When it comes to AAFCO & other officials within the pet food industry (specifically fish food) there are areas of high priority enforcement, and areas that fall under low priority enforcement. (with fish food, mostly the latter)
Detection of the hepatotoxic microcystins in 36 kinds of cyanobacteria Spirulina food products in China.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18569007
This is exactly why trust, and the test of time, become such important factors when it comes to pet food. Every single last ingredient has its pros, and cons, and something as simple as the source of a companies spirulina could potentially place a pet at risk due to contamination of microcystin toxins, or heavy metals from the water where it was grown.
That is true. It's something I specified in my comments. At the same time, products such as Orijen and Evo have found a ready market in the dog food world, so the cap to that limit may be higher than you think. And I'm not referencing the average consumer. The "average" consumer is perfectly happy feeding TetraMin in ignorance. I am referencing the upper tiers of the hobby.
I've already clarified I am not part of the 100% ethoxyquin must be gone crowd. What I want to know is how much ethoxyquin is in a food. Trace levels are inevitable. As I said previously, my "Ethoxyquin free" dog food contains 5ppm. The question is... is the ethoxyquin in sufficient enough quantity to serve a "technical or functional" purpose, in which case it must be on the ingredient label. I will join you in considering trace amounts irrelevant. Aside from that, what I have to go on are public statements and private communications from individual companies, where I expressly asked if ethoxyquin was in the food, either directly or indirectly. I can only assume companies are honest in these replies as I can only assume you are honest in yours. Some certainly have been because they've identified it as being in some components of the premix, although it's not listed on the label.
I don't see any difference in fish meal from Quebec, placed onto a truck and sent south, or whole fish frozen and shipped south, and the same occurring from Seattle. But yes, you are technically correct, it is "imported" so my wording should have been differently. But the existence or absence of Ethoxyquin remains a valid potential indicator of the initial freshness of product.
Absolutely, companies, especially North American companies, are doing just as you say and each one of them is technically out of compliance with AAFCO guidelines. I did not create this issue. I was not even aware it was one. It was brought to my attention by three separate companies, one of which is in North America. As I stated in my previous comments, apparently imported foods are held to a higher standard as to AAFCO labeling guidelines. Regardless, that standard should be expanded for all of the reasons I stated previously. If nothing else, so that companies cannot hide behind it.
No argument. All the more reason to purchase products with locally sourced ingredients or ingredients that are not imported from such locations. One way of doing that is searching for a food that does not contain Ethoxyquin, BHA, or BHT.
Once again you are mixing the dog world, with the fish keeping world, and they are worlds apart when it comes down to what most consumers are willing to pay for food for their pets. I'm well aware of what dog/cat owners are willing to spend on their loved ones, and I'm also well versed on Orijen food - their plant is located an hour directly north of me, and I have used & recommended their products for many years.
As I said early on in this discussion, in a perfect world .....
Fair enough, but I am telling you up front that is a very foolish assumption. This is a very cut throat industry, where half truths & total BS are an everyday occurrence. And in some cases the people responding may simply not know, because they have never asked themselves. They in turn use that ignorance as their line of defense. What you don't know can't hurt you type of logic. (your honor, I swear on this bible I did not know!)
When I see a company that for a starter doesn't make their own food, but has all of their products sourced out to one or more feed mills, with raw ingredients such as hydrolyzed feather meal, blood meal, and enough starch to sink a small ship (often wheat is the main ingredient) - I can state with 100% certainty the feed mill/s that make these products use raw ingredients preserved with ethoxyquin. Ethoxyquin is not just used by overseas suppliers of fish meal, it is used throughout this industry, including by those based in the USA. There are also several manufacturers/suppliers of ethoxyquin in the USA, including one in your home State of MO.
Who says that there is an issue? This is an issue because a company that uses "fish meal" on their label says that it's an issue? Really? Like they wouldn't file a complaint against their competition that is in non-compliance if they felt that it would result in some kind of "stop sale action". Yeah, right. And what exactly are these higher standards that involve "label" definitions that imported foods are held to? What label requirements are they held to, that domestic companies are not? More BS fed to you by a slick talking marketing rep.
So now we are also including BHA, and BHT, because after all it was the same dog fanatics who later took issue with these preservatives as well. Do these people even trust taking an aspirin? lol
Do we have conclusive research showing how these preservatives cause negative health issues when used at the levels they may be found in a commercial fish food? Of course not. Even the dog food fiasco involving these ingredients never held up to scrutiny.
The following is an article on BHA that was written by Dr. Greg Aldrich P.h.D. who writes for the "ingredient issues" section of the Petfood Industry magazine.
http://www.petfoodindustry.com/Columns/Ingredient_Issues/BHA__no_real_risk_can_be_identified.html
BTW - that was a rhetorical question, no need to respond.
This entire discussion seems to be doing nothing but going round & round in circles.
It's always easy to criticize when you are sitting safely high up in the bleachers......
You must have misunderstood my reference. I stated nothing pertaining to the toxicity, or lack thereof, of BHA or BHT. Their reference in the previous statement was only that their absence, like ethoxyquin, can be used as a potential indicator in determining the freshness of the initial products. It would have been an incomplete statement if BHA and BHT were excluded. Regardless, their use would appear to be relatively rare. I believe only two food manufacturers list them within the ingredient labels of their products.
In most cases, I am well beyond that level of responses within the individual companies. But since you brought it up, what's different in my taking one representative of the industries word for something and taking your word for it? Both have a vested interest.
It's also difficult to innovate when you're down in the trenches.
I don't think either of you even read eachothers comments, this is going back and forth like a merry go-round. When kuma first posted I knew there were others motives, and obviously there are... This discussion lost credibility the moment bias came into play.
Anyways just picked up some new NLS to try on my Piranha, they seem to like the floating pellets more then the sinking.
BTW that hydor EVO is awesome! Good sales at drfosters.
_________________________________________________________________________
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?504763-Cheap-plants-less-nitrate!-POTHOS
*Go S. Vettel #1 rb8--2 MORE RACES LEFT! SEE YOU IN TEXAS BOYS! LET'S MAKE IT 3 BACK TO BACK WDC!*
Anyways just picked up some new NLS to try on my Piranha, they seem to like the floating pellets more then the sinking.
BTW that hydor EVO is awesome! Good sales at drfosters.
_________________________________________________________________________
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?504763-Cheap-plants-less-nitrate!-POTHOS
*Go S. Vettel #1 rb8--2 MORE RACES LEFT! SEE YOU IN TEXAS BOYS! LET'S MAKE IT 3 BACK TO BACK WDC!*
I don't think either of you even read eachothers comments, this is going back and forth like a merry go-round. When kuma first posted I knew there were others motives, and obviously there are... This discussion lost credibility the moment bias came into play.
Anyways just picked up some new NLS to try on my Piranha, they seem to like the floating pellets more then the sinking.
BTW that hydor EVO is awesome! Good sales at drfosters.
_________________________________________________________________________
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?504763-Cheap-plants-less-nitrate!-POTHOS
*Go S. Vettel #1 rb8--2 MORE RACES LEFT! SEE YOU IN TEXAS BOYS! LET'S MAKE IT 3 BACK TO BACK WDC!*
F1! that's the exact same stuff I feed my Fahaka (not as a staple, but to help his digestion). I usually give him a few after he takes down a big cray, or a few thawed jumbo shrimp. Awesome food IMO...
Yeah they love it, ate a handful no prob, they only get fed once a week so they were hungry little buggers!
375grams for 20$ is a sweet deal, at my lfs half that much food is 22$!
_________________________________________________________________________
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?504763-Cheap-plants-less-nitrate!-POTHOS
*Go S. Vettel #1 rb8--2 MORE RACES LEFT! SEE YOU IN TEXAS BOYS! LET'S MAKE IT 3 BACK TO BACK WDC!*
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