What are you feeding your Vieja/Paratheraps?

  • We are currently upgrading MFK. thanks! -neo
Yes, ditto to frozen peas. As far as peas, even when fed alone they must be processed first, or they too can contain anti-nutritional matter, such as tannins, protease inhibitors, and phytic acid.

Also, the anti-nutritional factors found in peas can vary greatly from crop to crop & season to season. Something as simple as dry weather, or a cold spell, can push tannin levels up drastically. Even Canadian peas (Pisum sativum) which are white flowered varieties, produce some tannins and other anti-nutritional factors. (although far less than many other varities of peas)

Overall raw uncooked peas are not nearly as healthy for a fish as many people believe.

While the thesis written below contains a few mistakes (hopefully her prof spotted them) it does contain very accurate information with regards to peas, soybeans, and other other food stuffs derived from terrestrial based plant matter.

http://library2.usask.ca/theses/available/etd-03012005-103831/unrestricted/TracyBorgesonThesis.pdf

It's a long read, but if you start on page 34, 2.4.1.1 Antinutritional Factors ..........it should help drive my point home with regards to feeding peas and/or raw soybeans on a regular basis.


more info here;


http://www.fao.org/docrep/003/t0700e/T0700E06.htm

The presence of endogenous anti-nutritional factors within plant feedstuffs is believed to be the largest single factor limiting their use within compounded animal and fish feeds at high dietary levels. Table 11 summarizes the major groups of anti-nutritional factors present in plant feedstuffs with more specific examples given in Table 12. Although these factors vary in their individual toxicity to fish, a large proportion of them can be destroyed or inactivated by heat treatment processes (Tacon & Jackson, 1985).

Unfortunately toxicological studies have not been performed on the majority of these anti-nutritional factors; on a general basis however their presence in untreated foodstuffs normally results in anorexia, reduced growth and poor feed efficiency when used at high dietary concentrations. For review see NRC (1983), Hendricks & Bailey (1989) and Lovell (1989).
Click to expand...

Run those same peas, soybeans etc through the high temps of an extruder, and the antinutritional factors are reduced greatly, and in some cases removed entirely. Unfortunately running them through a blender, and/or freezing, doesn't do the trick.

All of this has been well documented within commercial aquaculture for many years. The ill effects from these types of food stuffs are not something that you will generally see with the naked eye.
 
I forgot about this one: Fish Have Trouble Stomaching Pea/Soybean Mix

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/02/110211074741.htm

Keep in mind in that article those are processed peas/soybeans, where much of the anti-nutritional matter has been removed/destroyed via processing. This is much more problematic when feeding these same foods in an uncooked state to fish.
 
I want to give you my reasoning for feeding soybeans or any vegetables for that matter. I try to feed my fish a varied diet as they would encounter in the wild. I also try to take a look at the particular species and the habitat they naturally forage in to decide what I'm going to feed them. Furthermore, on observations of various fish species that I have caught and cleaned when fishing, if you take a look at their gut, they often have quite a bit of different items in there. I feed them some vegetable matter such as greens or soybeans not only for the nutrition that they may get from the food but also for the fiber. I am not feeding them to fatten them up or increase their size for my consumption as they are doing with aquaculture. I am trying to give them a quality, good and interesting long life.

I did not read the first referenced article completely as it is quite long. This was the most interesting reference though because it used a type of cichlid in the study, which I think is relevant to this particular thread. A main point that I got from the article in regards to peas (which are also legumes but not the same thing as a soybean) is that they should not be the only form of sustenance. The fish fed a complex diet did better than those that did not. I have never fed peas to my fish (I'm not saying I wouldn't) but one thing I learned from this article was that the testa or seed coat needs to be removed due to the high proportion of tannins. Surprisingly, I already did this with soybeans since that part doesn't crush up. Please note that on pg. 34 2.4.1.1, the first sentence says "Peas contain some antinutritional factors that may hinder its ability to provide protein to fish". So I guess some research is still needed to determine if these antinutritional factors are indeed the culprits in the hinderance of protein utilization. This data leads one to believe that peas or perhaps maybe soybeans should not be fed exclusively but not that they should not be fed. I did not see information in the study in regards to water quality or water changing schedules which may have been a factor in growth of the fish studied.

Your second reference is also in regards to high concentrations of these materials in feed. I'm not doing that and I do not know if other hobbyists are feeding these materials exclusively. This information should definitely make one reconsider their feedings if they are doing that. I think this is great information though. It does back up the idea that I should keep feeding a varied diet in conjunction with a high quality pellet. The third reference I had actually already seen but it is in reference to salmonids and not cichlids, so I do know if it is totally relevant in regards to this conversation. I say that because trout/salmon are a different fish with different requirements and adaptations in comparison to a Viejas or Paratheraps. However it is interesting to note that a combination of peas and soybeans fed at the same time may not be good for some fish.

If you do a quick google search on soybeans in fish food you will see that it is a very common component of fish food in aquaculture operations. I believe 2 out of your 3 references say that pea protein is OK or beneficial when used a certain way. I don't think that the idea of the antinutional factor changing from season to season because of weather or other conditions is really that important. This can influence the nutritional content for any food source regardless of plant or animal origins. I'm going to continue to feeding as I have but when I am finished with my hikari bio gold I'm going to switch to NLS. I do not feed veggies everyday but the fish like them and seem happy. Thanks for the information!
 
Jake - you can spin the info in those links any way that you like, the reality is those 2 food stuffs are known to contain anti-nutritional factors in quantities that are known to have a negative effect on the overall health & well being of every species of fish that they have been tested on over the years. I gave you a few links that I had on hand for quick reference, but my opinion is based on reading numerous studies over numerous years. Yes, of course the amount of anti-nutritional matter will be dependent on various factors, including how much quantity is fed to a fish. My point was/is there are many fish safe forms of plant matter that one can feed, so why feed 2 that are well documented over decades of feed trials as containing significant quantities of these anti-nutritional substances? That makes absolutely no sense. Feeding them in a raw state makes even less sense, outer skins removed, or not.

I don't need to do a quick google search on soybeans in fish food, you are preaching to the choir my friend. lol Soybean meal, just like most terrestrial based plant matter, is utilized in commercial aquaculture because it is a very inexpensive form of protein compared to protein derived from marine sources, not because it is a high quality premium raw ingredient. In commercial applications the goal is to find cheaper alternatives, not healthier alternatives, which is exactly what ALL commerecial feed trials are typically geared around. Reducing feed costs, not ways to increase feed costs by spending even more money on healthier alternatives. Most commercially raised fish such as trout, salmon, tilapia, catfish, etc aren't being raised with longevity in mind, most of those fish will be sent to market for human consumption before they reach their first birthday.

if you feel that it will somehow provide added nutrients (or fiber) beyond what's already being provided in a premium pellet food, my advice would be to feed a safer form of aquatic based plant matter, that is known to NOT contain any anti-nutritional matter, that over the long haul may effect the health & well being of your fish in a negative way. This is kind of a no brainer, don't you think? A tin of corn, peas, or soybeans - or an aquatic based foodstuff such as cultured nori. Hmmmmm.

I'm not looking to get into some long winded debate over a subject such as feeding raw soybeans to a Vieja. I was just attempting to offer some freindly advice, feel free to take it or leave it.
 
Wow a lot of feedback on this thread. Thanks for the input guys. Yeah back when I was feeding veggies to my old bifa it was just just cut up lettuce, zucc, and peas nothing too crazy. And ya while NLS does contain veggie matter I still feed an all veggie based pellet just to reassure myself he's getting all the extra veggie he needs. Look like a lot of you guys also like doing so via algae wafers
 
Dont want to turn this in to another food debate thread,but i feed my viejas,romiane lettuce,peas,algae wafers,hikari bio-gold,hikari cichlid gold,earthworm sticks or flakes,spirulina pellets.
Not sayig that my way or any one elses way is better just do what works for you and do your own research dont depend on anyone to tell you whats best find out for yourself.
I have a very large veija collection(my favorite cichlids)and own almost very vieja and have had excellent success feedind what i feed.These are in my collection now.
1.veija maclulauda(blackbelt)
2.veija synspilum(breeding trio)
3.veija regani
4.veija bifaitiutus(juvies)

Had in the past were sold recently
1.Veija melanarus(sold to make room for the regani)
2.vieja heterospilus(sold to a breeder )
3. veija argenta(wild pair)sold to make room for breidorhi
 
btw, aclockworkorange u are doing an excellent job on that blackbelt.
 
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