What is F0/F1?

[peathenster]

Maybe there is just no point questioning the current system because it's so established. Most vendors just use the F# system because it's what their consumers understand.

Bingo

Studies have been done.



http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/119557049/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0

More Here.

And Here for cichlids specifically.

Interesting read, but I'm a bit suspicious. Most convicts around have probably been inbred for more than 5 generation, but I don't know if it's common to have 4 out of 5 die in a brood?

maybe I am the only one that feels this way

No you are not, but some people (like me) give up too easily

 

[flowerpower]

This was what I basically meant. But you explained it so much better .



I completely agree with you Peter, and thanks for the link, it was very informative. I never knew that you teach and study genetics. The current F# system is flawed, and I would like to know who originally started using it for fish, and what were their original intentions.

The current F# system basically just tracks the generation of the fish from it's wild parents, but really doesn't track how "clean" the bloodline is. Granted in most cases they go hand and hand, but there are some exceptions. For instance, say I buy a group of 4 F1 midas from one guy, then figure out I have all females. So I decide to buy another unrelated F1 male from someone else, and end up spawning him with one of my females. Yes, the fry would be 2nd generation from the wild parents, but it would be an untainted bloodline. Or if I were a purist, I would purposely buy F1's from different parents to preserve the bloodline.

I think that if there is going to be a system, then it should track both the generation, and the bloodline.

Example:
G(Generation of the fish)
F(Bloodline)

Wild Caught Specimen= G0,F0
Spawn from that wild caught pair= G1,F0
Spawn from the G1,F0 same brood= G2,F1
Spawn from a G1,F0 different broods= G2,F0
Spawn from G2,F1 same brood= G3,F2
And so on and so on........

I'm sure someone with more knowledge on this can come up with something better than this, but hey...I tried

Where a system like this would be much more efficient, it would also be very confusing for many that are used to the current system like F1N01 stated. It would completely throw off the balance of the way things currently are. Maybe there is just no point questioning the current system because it's so established. Most vendors just use the F# system because it's what their consumers understand. If everyone were to put in the effort to make it a better system, then it might be possible to change.

On another note, I would like to see studies concentrating on how many generations down does it actually take before a species starts to feel the effects of inbreeding. If it's already been done, please direct me to the info

Dave,
To reiterate the point I was trying to make over the phone:
The system you propose, or any other, would prove difficult to decipher and keep track of without relying on papers/certification/registration with some central organized body whose sole purpose was to regulate and record such information.

This is not too far fetched considering that this is what the AKC is for pure bred dogs; however, the transition to such a system would be extremely troublesome and confusing.


Furthermore, providing papers and registries for fish would be prohibitively exhausting and expensive.

A breeder/vendor/collector would have to pay to register each and every fish collected, bred and sold which I'm not even sure is possible considering that you're often dealing with hundreds of identical fish.
Were it feasible, the price of these registered fish would increase, lining the pockets of some third party entity who would inevitably possess too much power and say-so over the hobby.

An excellent business plan but not something I'm too interested in being subjected to.

Kinda kills the spirit of the hobby for me.

I'll wait for the day when wild stock is non existent before I start tracking generations and deferring to a piece of paper issued by some Cichlid Kennel Club Gustapo.

Better to have this information (f#, collection points, breeding history) disseminated the way it's currently being done. Just a little more diligently perhaps.