What's the longest amount of time.....

[Industrial]

I've never kept armatus, but having kept tats and scombs and reading up a lot on the sudden death I think that armatus are too skittish to keep in captivity most of the time.

Also, where I work we get in a ton of 12-18" ID sharks that beat themselves up beyond recognition in their original tanks. We tried putting them in 125s and they just continued to do their mad dashes into the glass. Then when we tried 40 breeders, they were unable to do that and slowly started to heal up. Boulengerella species are the same way when they are young and most of the time we need to keep them in small tanks to prevent any damage from freaking out.

Another theory is aggression. At home, I have two tats and they do NOT get along. The larger of the two has a 3'x1.5' area in the tank that if the other one invades he gets bitten up. And my smaller tat has smacked himself into the glass pretty good. Perhaps the size of the tank, gives him the ability to build up that speed.

IMO a pelagic whitewater game fish isn't going to do well in captivity period. What these fish need is space to dart long distances and stop without hitting anything. Also, I read somewhere before that they school at night, and are solo during the day. That is also hard to accomplish in a 6'x2' space.

Another theory is dietary requirements that they are not receiving, which I do not buy into. Probably half the pacus people bring into work ate nothing but goldfish for years and they do not smash into the glass violently and die because of it.

 

[krichardson]

I've never kept armatus, but having kept tats and scombs and reading up a lot on the sudden death I think that armatus are too skittish to keep in captivity most of the time.

Also, where I work we get in a ton of 12-18" ID sharks that beat themselves up beyond recognition in their original tanks. We tried putting them in 125s and they just continued to do their mad dashes into the glass. Then when we tried 40 breeders, they were unable to do that and slowly started to heal up. Boulengerella species are the same way when they are young and most of the time we need to keep them in small tanks to prevent any damage from freaking out.

Another theory is aggression. At home, I have two tats and they do NOT get along. The larger of the two has a 3'x1.5' area in the tank that if the other one invades he gets bitten up. And my smaller tat has smacked himself into the glass pretty good. Perhaps the size of the tank, gives him the ability to build up that speed.

IMO a pelagic whitewater game fish isn't going to do well in captivity period. What these fish need is space to dart long distances and stop without hitting anything. Also, I read somewhere before that they school at night, and are solo during the day. That is also hard to accomplish in a 6'x2' space.

Another theory is dietary requirements that they are not receiving, which I do not buy into. Probably half the pacus people bring into work ate nothing but goldfish for years and they do not smash into the glass violently and die because of it.

Yeah,most pacu seem to be treated as if they are carnivorous pirahna.I don't think anyone is claiming that the fish's diet is what is causing them to be skittish glass bangers though...None of the armatus that I have had were skittish and they all died with perfectly shaped snouts because they were never bashed into the glass while they were in my care.I agree with the space part though.They should be housed in the biggest tank possible but mine and others have died before space even became an issue.

 

[DB junkie]

My .02-

I'm willing to bet the monster over in Japan that really turned all of us on to these fish after the magazine article, is probobly kept in RO water. I believe it was also fed nothing but live. I could be wrong, but I bet you follow those 2 guidelines and you should be set. Only other thing I could think of is maybe even more o2. Not bubbles or current but actual O2.

I can speak from personal experience, the faster you convert them to smelt or shrimp the faster they die. I always broke mine sooner then everyone else and mine were always first to check out.

I've had much more success raising Rhaphiodons then any Hydro species. Tats seem pretty hardy but usually succum to poorly chosen tankmates like Armatus.

 

[flamenco-t]

Alan,

How long after you convert to smelt and shrimp that they start dieing off ? I have 2 currently about 14+" that have been on smelt for about a year.

 

[koltsixx]

Hydrolycus Armatus X2

1.Tank Size: 55 gal
2.Temp: 78
3.PH: 8
4.Tankmates: none
5.Other notable Tank conditions: Tank was to small and under filtered Nitrate was 20-40 ppm gas exchange at surface poor
6.Initial Specimen Size: 4-5"
7.Size Specimen Died at: 1st one never grew 2nd one was 8"
8.Age Specimen Died at: 1st one 1mo. second one 9mo.
9.Cause of death if it can be determined - claustrophibia, not enuff room to grow and shed nitra gas minmal O2, fed goldfish. small insufficient water changes

Hydrolycus Scomberiodes x3

1.Tank Size: 55, 75, 150
2.Temp: 78
3.PH: 8
4.Tankmates: Cudas, brycon, dats, chalceus, BGK, vampire pleco, cats
5.Other notable Tank conditions: The one thats been alive for almost 2 years has powerheads, more filtration and larger water volume from the start.
6.Initial Specimen Size: 2-5"
7.Size Specimen Died at: 2 died @ 6"- 1 still alive 9-10"
8.Age Specimen Died at: 2 died 3 & 6mo. - 1 still alive 22 months
9.Cause of death if it can be determined - claustrophobia same as Armatus they were raised in 55 grow outs the one thats alive was in 75 gal solo for 3 mo. then 150XH for the past year and a half and this weekend will be moved to his new 210 with 50gal sump - we should list our sucesses as well.

Than for all the info bro. I agree with your suggestion about tracking our success as well. I'm really impressed that you've managed to keep a Scomb so long. I've always got the impression from others on here it was basically impossible to keep a Scomb going for more than a year. So the fact your approaching 2 years amazes me. I'd love to see pics of a decent sized Scomb I don't think I've ever seen one on here. Post it up bro.

I think DBJUNKIE might be onto something when he suggests that something could be missing in the diet that we provide for our hydros.My past few armati (I like that plural term ) were started off on feeders and then weened onto krill,shrimp and finally smelt chunks.They were grown out in a sixty gallon tank with neutral ph,50%weekly water changes and then moved to a 180 at the size of around six inches.Thew water may be the problem also.There just may be too much harsh substances present for these fish to withstand for very long periods of time.I am going to look into some type of purifier for this one that I have now.

Maybe he is on to something imagine Armati are closet vegetarians. Seriously though you never know. I believe there are several fish that were thought to be strictly piscivorous that have been found to eat falling nuts and vegetation that find there way into the water. Though I doubt it Armatus bodies just scream extreme predator. I still think it's more likely related to oxygen content of the water and hyper active growth due to over feeding. As I said there are many specialized predators that need their development to be slow in order for them to thrive. Developing too quickly causes deformities in their hearts and skeletal structure amongst other things. Again if more people presented the info the way I said we may be able to see a common pattern between those who had lost their Armarti prematurely and those who managed to keep them long term. As I said my Armartus are at least 1 year 6 months old. 6 months in George'shark Aquarium) personal collection and a year in mine. Still not many people have posted with their success or loss so we can figure this out.

You seem well educated so I'll share some knowledge with you, haha. At a certain temperature, the enzymes in the pathogens do optimal work (harmful for your fish) But, when the temperature gets too high, the enzymes denature and the virus is rendered harmless and eventually killed by antibodies. The same is true for humans, it's the reason why our body temperature raises to 100+ degrees when we have a fever, to denature the enzymes in the pathogens. The only harmful thing is that it could also denature the enzymes necessary for sustaining life, so take caution on prolonged high temperatures.

I agree with you whole heartedly. Though I was also trying to make a connection between a shortened life cycle in relation to temperature in pathogens and parasites. Such as Ick which we cure by raising temperature's and adding medication/salt to the water. We raise the temperature's to force the ick's life cycle to accelerate so it mature's to a developmental stage which is vunerable to the medication. The raised heat increases their metabolism and forces them to mature prematurely and die this way the juvenile stage can be targeted by the medication. I personally think there is a very big connection between temp and Armarti longevity. If for nothing else just the fact that cool water contains approx. twice as much dissolved oxygen than tropical water. Which I think is very important to a fish whose body is a model of efficiency and geared to needing optimal conditions to keep it running right. Think of it like a normal car versus a sport car. The higher the aspiration of the vehicle the greater the quality of it's fuel must be as well as greater amounts of oxygen. Using less than premium fuel in a car that require's it causes more than a engine knock. It could totally destroy your engine the same goes for the vehicle not getting enough air. Oxygen is basically a very important component of all thing that are for lack of a better term "high performanc machines" from animals to machines.

I've never kept armatus, but having kept tats and scombs and reading up a lot on the sudden death I think that armatus are too skittish to keep in captivity most of the time.

Also, where I work we get in a ton of 12-18" ID sharks that beat themselves up beyond recognition in their original tanks. We tried putting them in 125s and they just continued to do their mad dashes into the glass. Then when we tried 40 breeders, they were unable to do that and slowly started to heal up. Boulengerella species are the same way when they are young and most of the time we need to keep them in small tanks to prevent any damage from freaking out.

Another theory is aggression. At home, I have two tats and they do NOT get along. The larger of the two has a 3'x1.5' area in the tank that if the other one invades he gets bitten up. And my smaller tat has smacked himself into the glass pretty good. Perhaps the size of the tank, gives him the ability to build up that speed.

IMO a pelagic whitewater game fish isn't going to do well in captivity period. What these fish need is space to dart long distances and stop without hitting anything. Also, I read somewhere before that they school at night, and are solo during the day. That is also hard to accomplish in a 6'x2' space.

Another theory is dietary requirements that they are not receiving, which I do not buy into. Probably half the pacus people bring into work ate nothing but goldfish for years and they do not smash into the glass violently and die because of it.

They basically break their backs cause their highly effective swimming machines and running into a wall just isn't something they'd ever encounter in the wild. There's alot of validity to what you say about keeping them in small tanks so they can't develop the speed to do permanent damage to themselves. It's commonly advised on the Gar forum to keep certain gars in small tanks to prevent such accidents. Example: Short-Nose Gars are notorious for being skittish back breaker's. They get spooked and swim full bore into a tank wall breaking their backs. It's a commonly given suggestion to keep Short-Nose's in small tanks so they can't build up speed like that, so they have a better chance of growing to a more confident adult. So I think in alot of respect's your point is dead on, at least as far as preventing broken backs. However it seems Armarti die suddenly often times with no sign of trauma. That's what I want to look into. Why without any seen trauma or disease do these guys just go belly up.

Yeah,most pacu seem to be treated as if they are carnivorous pirahna.I don't think anyone is claiming that the fish's diet is what is causing them to be skittish glass bangers though...None of the armatus that I have had were skittish and they all died with perfectly shaped snouts because they were never bashed into the glass while they were in my care.I agree with the space part though.They should be housed in the biggest tank possible but mine and others have died before space even became an issue.

I think he was actually suggesting a smaller tank rather than a larger one to prevent broken back syndrome. At least in their juvenile stage of development so they don't accidently hurt themselves.

My .02-

I'm willing to bet the monster over in Japan that really turned all of us on to these fish after the magazine article, is probobly kept in RO water. I believe it was also fed nothing but live. I could be wrong, but I bet you follow those 2 guidelines and you should be set. Only other thing I could think of is maybe even more o2. Not bubbles or current but actual O2.

I can speak from personal experience, the faster you convert them to smelt or shrimp the faster they die. I always broke mine sooner then everyone else and mine were always first to check out.

I've had much more success raising Rhaphiodons then any Hydro species. Tats seem pretty hardy but usually succum to poorly chosen tankmates like Armatus.

First off you get mad prop's. I consider you one of those in the know about keeping these guys as well as mad prop's for breaking such a obvious killing machine of eating live. It speaks alot about your dedication that you try your best to give a healthy varied diet by breaking them of eating live, just so you can make sure they're getting as much nutrition as possible from their diet. That's why I don't believe it's diet, cause of people like you. You give them such a varied healthy diet I can't imagine any fish not thriving on it. How ever maybe that diet leads to exceptional growth rates that the Armarti just can't handle. I personally lost my Siniperca Scherzeri from what I can tell to feeding him too well. He was growing in leaps and bounds and eating a poop load more than anyone else in the tank. Yet I noticed 24 hours after a heavy feeding he'd looked like he was about to die. He didn't have anything stuck in his throat nothing blocking his gills or anything. However he'd turn almost white and look like he couldn't breathe. I tried to cut him back, but he was the most aggressive eater in the tank and ate everything from live to pellets to shrimp. So it was basically impossible to cut him down especially considering how ridiculously fast he was and that huge vacum of a mouth. So one day after a large feeding I found him dead on my tank floor. Mind you he was in the same tank as the Armati and I checked all the other water param's to make sure it wasn't that. He seemed to die from gluttony!?!?! and accelerated growth!?!?! Interestingly enough it's cause of him and that I lowered my tank temp. a little below normal so he could comm. with my Armarti. Since lowering the temp I noticed huge changes in my Armati's personalities. They become ridiculously active. Started patroling the tank actively instead of setting up a territory and defending it,they also became less skittish. Heck they started nipping me when I tried to do water changes. I also had a problem with them getting cloudy eyes basically every couple of weeks. Usually they'd sctratch their eyes on something while running from me or a tank mate or they managed to tag each other in the eye with those fangs. Sometimes it seemed to happen for no reason at all. Since I lowered the temperature they never get that cloudy. They also became alot more responsive to me. They now do a thing often times associated with cichlids. They rush up to greet me mouths opening and closing wildly wagging their tails begging to be fed. There has definetly been a change in their personalities big time since the temp. lowering.

 

[koltsixx]

Alan,

How long after you convert to smelt and shrimp that they start dieing off ? I have 2 currently about 14+" that have been on smelt for about a year.

We'd all appreciate hearing some input from you seeing as you've had yours for a year on smelt and they are currently 14+inches. So how bout helping your fellow hobbyist's out. How long have you had them? Have you had problems with them in the past? Are you doing anything that you think is making a difference as far as keeping them long term?

I'm actually surprised that some people aren't sharing their experiences, since I know some have had success keeping them. I figured we'd all like to see our fellow hobbyist's succeed and would be glad to help. I know I've received alot of helpful info here before.

 

[channarox]

It would be interesting to say the least to know if any did survive and for how long. Only a couple of responses, but so far I've had mine the longest it seems. I got mine from Shark Aquarium last February as a birthday gift to myself. George had just brought them in from his personal collection which he said he obtained the previous summer. They were about 5-6 inches at the time. Now interestingly enough I've had them for a year and they only put on another 4-5 inches since then. So they're growing alot slower than what most people experience on here experience. I pretty sure they aren't stunted only because they recently jumped from 8-10 inches. Though again I think the slow growth on mine can be linked to their feeding schedule and low temps I keep them in. I've yet to have them get a infection or parasites of any kind(knock on wood) thankfully. I'm thinkin it might be because I of the unsual water temp I keep them at, that I've had sucess with them. As I stated before lower temp's slow down their metabolism which probably puts less strain on them. They scratch each other up all the time with those teeth of their's and still no skin problems. Though one time one of got the other's eye and it clouded over for a week then it completely healed.

Wow, even mine grew about 2-3 inches in the short time I had them. Then again, my tank was always about 87 Farenheit.

 

[DB junkie]

I had the best luck with my first Armatus. Got to 14-16" before checking out after a Dat fight. Ate live up to about 8-9". 2nd and 3rd batches were off live by like 4-5 and died between 10-12. Most from the "characin stuppor"

Funny thing is my Rhaph lived side by side with every batch, eating the same food. That thing made it just shy of 5 years.

 

[flamenco-t]

I have had 7 armatus in the past 2 years.

First batch, 3 Armatus around 8-9". Acquired them in Dec of 08.

http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=216230

Kept them in 120 (4x2), sold 2 in the first 3-4 months. Kept the last one until about 12" and traded him around October 09.

Their diet consist of krill, shrimp and smelt. The last one was taking massivore before I traded it for an AUL (aussie lungfish).

Second Batch; I wanted to start a shoal, so in August of 09 I bought 4 of Infinite Aquatics batch. They came in around 2-3", I stick them in a 75 gallon tank for grow out

Fed them QT'ed feeders until they get around 6-7" before I tried the starving method.

I lost the first one around Nov of 09. It was the smallest one and he was alienated from the rest of the pack. Started to swim funny and eventually died. They were still on feeders (rosies and small goldfish)

Shorty after that, I started the starving method. One ate shrimp pretty much right away, the other will only eat nightcrawlers and the last only take feeders. After about 2 months, all three started to take smelt, shrimp and krill.

I lost the 2nd one in May 2010. They got to around 9-10" (they started to grow VERY fast once they're off feeders). He was bullied by the african aro, when I was away fro 2-3 days for the weekend.

I pulled the afro aro and kept the last two.

Fast forward to present, They're about 14" now, the larger one grows taller than the smaller one.

Their diet consist of; smelt and shrimp. Those two can eat about 5-6 large smelts (4" ) per feeding. I feed them every other day.

Tankmates: Tigrinus, gulper, leo and hystrix.

Filtration: Eheim 2262, Eheim 2217 and drip system (15 gallons of freshwater drip per day)

No heater, I don't run heater on any of my tanks. House stays around 70-74 degrees. Tanks stays around 76-77 degrees.

PH: 7.0 constant with drip system

Lights on 8 hours a day

Unpainted glass on all 4 sides and bottom.

They're still in the original 75 gallon they grew up in LOL. I am scared to move them to the 540. I am waiting to move 3 more datnoids and introduced the larger fei feng (in another tank) to the 540 so that the dats will get familiarized(sp) with characins.

They get along fine, I see the larger one occasionally charging against the smaller one. I'd like to think it's a territotial thing, but we'll see once they move to the 540 (10 feet long x 3 feet wide)

[YT]KU9qvV70UhM[/YT]

 

[flamenco-t]

[YT]pEJRzrvzSA8[/YT]