Why all the hate for Chinese knockoff filters?

[Drstrangelove]

You can't really blame the Chinese for flooding the market with cheap junk. You can't blame the chinese for making bad tools when greedy American corporations outsourced their production overseas and closed the doors on their plants in the states. I'm not trying to get too political here. If an American company made a quality aquarium product that was made in the states or Canada I'd buy it. But I can't see giving Rolf C. Hagen corporation a huge pile of my money for a product that is indeed made in China same as sunsun. These name brands wont cut their profit margins to a reasonable retail price and they overcharge for the same stuff they've been selling for the last 25 years... so you can't tell me that money is going to R&D or marketing.

I used to work in several corporations (a few were foreign owned) as a controller. I doubt that you know what the profits are on products or where a company's revenue is spent anymore than I do (as an outsider.) In fact, we often had to undertake specific studies internally to know exactly what our profits were on specific products and even on whole product lines. It's inaccurate to state that companies routinely know what their profits are on products that they make: profits are of course known at a global level, but many of the companies that handle multiple lines of products can operate without any real knowledge of what specific products or groups of products cost to make.

Calling American companies "greedy" is strange when afaik many of China's companies happen to be capitalist and by definition are equally "greedy" as well. That seems rather curious. All companies are intended to be designed to maximize wealth for their shareholders: end of story. China's companies will and do charge as much as they can get away with: they aren't benevolent, world peace-loving, coca cola drinking, hand holding, dreamy eyed owners.

What people should be aware of is that China's costs are lower because:

1) they can and often do ignore copyrights and thus get free R&D
2) they can employ children
3) they have much more limited or non existent investment in safety or environmental areas
4) they have a lower standard of living that allows them to compete relative to certain labor costs
5) the exchange rate Yuan:dollar is artificially set to make their products cheaper

If you want to argue that it's wrong for American's to be concerned with that in China, then it should be correct to support lower wages, employment of children, ignoring copyrights, and lowering safety and environmental costs here.

If you want to say it's cheaper and perhaps a good alternative to a certain expensive American or Japanese or European product, then that's all good. But the "greedy" part seems to be the important thing.

It costs less than $20 for apple to make an iphone 5 in china.. so you cant tell me $300 is justified for an fx6 when oddysea sells a knockoff that runs $45

As an accountant I had to learn all the definitions underlying words that related to accounting and financial reports. Maybe you and I have a different definition of "cost" and "make." If you have any information that makes you think it costs $20 to make an iphone 5 in China, please post it.

 

[jordanroda]

Jordy thinks anything made China.is junk...

 

[krichardson]

If you want to argue that it's wrong for American's to be concerned with that in China, then it should be correct to support lower wages, employment of children, ignoring copyrights, and lowering safety and environmental costs here.

I'm not sure about that since those conditions are by products of the Chinese government and no one is going to influence them to change how they do things.

 

[mudbuttjones]

All im saying is that during my father's generation America had a much more sound industrial base. Capitalism is essentially driven by greed. Which is fine to me until people completely circumvent ethics or my definition of what's ethical.

Is it wrong to fire American workers and ship their jobs overseas to maximize profits? Absolutely. These days companies have to cut corners to be competitive, I understand this. Its still amazing to me that products can be profitable after shipping them literally around the world and then dealing with a higher than usual failure rate of said goods... than just paying a guy in town to do it right the first time.

Work conditions in China can be terrible, this I also understand. I can't exactly boycott Chinese goods either. The consumer can vote with their pocket book, but the choice has been essentially made for us, I'd be naked and hungry if I decided to not use Chinese products because of a moral ground.

My basic reasoning for buying cheap aquarium supplies from the far east are as follows:

1) there's no domestic made alternative
2) If the company is domestic their product is made overseas anyway
3) I don't live in Europe and feel compelled to support European companies who sell Chinese made goods
4) the gap in quality vs name brand filters is miniscule compared to the gap in price


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[Drstrangelove]

I'll simply limit myself to the last point:

"4) the gap in quality vs name brand filters is miniscule compared to the gap in price"


I don't know that this is as big a deal as it sounds. If I have a tank with great and expensive fish that I have kept for years, I won't mind spending 40% more for a heater or a filter or a pump, so that I give myself 10% more "chance" of not losing my fish.

That's called insurance to me. If I am so cost conscious that a few dollars here and there drive me nuts, then I'm buying a 30 gallon and tossing in some guppies with a sponge filter and a 50 watt bulb.

In economics, if one can discern a real difference in quality between 2 makers of the same product, it always makes sense that one will cost more and probably cost more in a disproportionate manner. The product isn't better by chance. The maker intentionally spent more money to make it better to satisfy a part of the market that is willing to pay for it. That's why we have such a variety of items in the market place. Capitalism is designed to meet the needs of consumers and in many markets some consumers are willing to pay more while some are not.

That's microeconomics 101.

 

[xraycer]

I don't know that this is as big a deal as it sounds. If I have a tank with great and expensive fish that I have kept for years, I won't mind spending 40% more for a heater or a filter or a pump, so that I give myself 10% more "chance" of not losing my fish.

That's called insurance to me. If I am so cost conscious that a few dollars here and there drive me nuts, then I'm buying a 30 gallon and tossing in some guppies with a sponge filter and a 50 watt bulb.

So, if you don't have a large set up with "great and expensive fish", then its ok to buy no name brands, since you don't have to really give a crap about inferior, low-quality life forms/pets?

That's microeconomics 101.

I'm not made of money. That's real life 101.

 

[mudbuttjones]

2 sunsun 302's or 304's cost less than a single fluval 406. That's Safety in numbers.

This is why I bought them, I try to build redundancy into every system. 2 sources of filtration 2 smaller heaters, etc. I had an Eheim airlock, quit pumping and I lost livestock because of it. Who can tell a submerged spraybar quit on you when your on your way to work in the morning? I replaced the single eheim with a pair of cheaper sunsun filters. Had I used 2 in the first place I wouldn't have lost fish. I would've had time to catch the failure, and things wouldve been ok.

If I was hemorrhaging money and making 6 figures a year, I would've ponied up for a pair of fluvals. But when you're an average working joe, keeping a fleet of filters running will quickly eat you out of house and home. When I discovered the cheap junk seemed to last about as long as the expensive junk, the choice became obvious. I can't just drop $200-300 everytime I run into a bump in the road. And its not like I'm exactly poor either, its just.. well. . I'm married. I can sneak a purchase past the wife now and again. But aquarium filters that rival the car payment or daycare... not to often haha


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[mudbuttjones]

Maybe you and I have a different definition of "cost" and "make." If you have any information that makes you think it costs $20 to make an iphone 5 in China, please post it.

I stand corrected. I reread some articles. They come closer to $200 all said and done. They had a claimed "cost to make" or "manufacturing cost" of $8 per phone. I did some digging and thats actually the cost of labor per phone at $1.77 per hour per employee.


Wow......

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[Monster_Minis]

I can't stand Aqueon... Just wanna throw that out there... Everything is garbage except their heaters.. And they are still crap, but I haven't found one I like better yet outside the expensive titaniums.. Which i have been slowly upgrading to. I still run all Marineland and other then replacing a few parts every few years I am very happy with the product after I make my own tweeks. But I have noticed in the past 15yrs the quality of the product has diminished.. They just aren't built like they use to be. I would gladly pay a few $ for the old models that didnt flex easily in my hand.

 

[Drstrangelove]

So, if you don't have a large set up with "great and expensive fish", then its ok to buy no name brands, since you don't have to really give a crap about inferior, low-quality life forms/pets?

If you read what you quoted, I used the word "I" seven times which is my way for me to explain that this is how "I" make decisions. Otherwise I don't get your question. I mate my spending decisions on the value of the items I'm spending for.

If I had a $1,000 aro or ray, or a 20 year old Pacu or Gar, I would never buy a cheap heater that I know has more risk to fail just so I can save $5. On the other hand, I won't spend $2,000 to buy an acrylic tank to house guppies. I spend my money in accordance with maximizing my perceived utility. I don't regard saving $5 as worth risking a tank full of expensive fish. I do consider it reasonable to be frugal with regards to a tank full of replaceable, inexpensive fish for which I have no attachment.

And I didn't call guppies inferior or low quality life forms: those are your words. They are however inexpensive, easily replaced, and less intelligent life forms in my experience than many other types of fish.

But regardless: that was not the point of my post. I was explaining why there are products types in the market place that will have expensive and cheap options. "I" don't make the market place. Everyone does. And everyone apparently consists of people who want inexpensive products and also people who are willing to pay more.

I'm not made of money. That's real life 101.

I don't know why you posted this comment with a quote from my post. It's out of context and your comment has nothing to do with what my post was discussing.