Why do you think some members overstock American cichlids ?

[Fish on Fire]

a busy tank is unnatural, unattrative, and can be stressful to the occupants and the viewers.

Well, I guess these guys never got the memo not to "overcrowd" themselves.

[video=youtube_share;B865DRjwC_g]http://youtu.be/B865DRjwC_g[/video]

Fact is that fish live in groups, doesn't matter if they are predator or prey, they all live in close relation to each other and rarely will you ever find fish that are truly solitary. In fact, the solo wet pet is the most unnatural way that you can keep a fish. Cichlids, like pretty much any other fish in the world, will voluntarily overcrowd themselves when not breeding and will live in big groups, coexisting with each other much like any other animal in the world. In the Costa Rican take, you can see dovii swimming among the other non-predatory cichlids as well as mollies, platies, etc. Overcrowded tanks are in fact very natural, far more so than solo wet pets or "pairs" are.

You will not find a single cichlid in the world that is truly solitary or lives away from other "fishmates" in pairs. Even the great emperor cichlid of Lake Tanganyika live in gigantic shoals out in the deep waters and only separate from their group in order to breed and raise their fry before rejoining the giant groups that school throughout the deep waters of the lake.

 

[Jc1119]

I agree with most as it's a matter of opinion, but it also is dependent on the species in question and combinations of those species. I agree with Fish on Fire that many species will be in groups in the wild, but it's not often you see piles of breeding Jags or any Parachromis species for that matter. Usually, but not always, they will defend an area much larger than most aquariums when breeding.....if not breeding, they do co-habitate with lots of other fish so there are no hard fast rules.

There is also something to be said about cover. In an aquarium, provide lots of cover with fewer fish and the fish will pick and defend and area or perceived "territory". Provide no cover at all and increase the load, many large Centrals can be kept together with no territories to defend.....

But at the end of the day, if they are happy and healthy, then no harm no foul. All aquaria are a far cry from what they would occupy in the wild, but with proper filtration and husbandry the aquarist can bend the "rules" so to speak.

 

[Fish on Fire]

I agree with most as it's a matter of opinion, but it also is dependent on the species in question and combinations of those species. I agree with Fish on Fire that many species will be in groups in the wild, but it's not often you see piles of Jags or any Parachromis species for that matter. Usually, but not always, they will defend an area much larger than most aquariums........

There is also something to be said about cover. Provide lots with fewer fish and the fish will pick and defend and area or perceived "territory". Provide no cover at all and increase the load, many large Centrals can be kept together with no territories to defend.....

But at the end of the day, if they are happy and healthy, then no harm no foul. All aquaria are a far cry from what they would occupy in the wild, but with proper filtration and husbandry the aquarist can bend the "rules" so to speak.

Yes, but the territorial trait only really appears in the wild when a male fish is ready and looking to breed and when a pair has formed and they are raising fry. In the home aquaria, this occurs all of the time due to the amount that people tend to feed their fish, therefore they are almost always in condition to breed and will produce brood after brood of fry. This is not the case in the wilds, food is not just floating around waiting to be eaten. Pairs split up and go their separate ways after the fry are gone, they don't hang around, they leave and go back to the big groups of fish, seeking to restore their energy and get back into breeding condition. In the wilds, this takes much longer to accomplish and the fish spend more of their time in large groups than they do defending any one territory.

 

[Miguel]

There is also something to be said about cover. Provide lots with fewer fish and the fish will pick and defend and area or perceived "territory". Provide no cover at all and increase the load, many large Centrals can be kept together with no territories to defend.....

This was my opinion and practice for years. I am not so sure anymore, and in the tanks i have put some kind of territory making material I saw no significant difference in fish behaviour.

But, again, i do not mix sexes, which, imho, is the worst factor in ' unhealthy' overstocking.

 

[Jc1119]

Yes, but the territorial trait only really appears in the wild when a male fish is ready and looking to breed and when a pair has formed and they are raising fry. In the home aquaria, this occurs all of the time due to the amount that people tend to feed their fish, therefore they are almost always in condition to breed and will produce brood after brood of fry. This is not the case in the wilds, food is not just floating around waiting to be eaten. Pairs split up and go their separate ways after the fry are gone, they don't hang around, they leave and go back to the big groups of fish, seeking to restore their energy and get back into breeding condition. In the wilds, this takes much longer to accomplish and the fish spend more of their time in large groups than they do defending any one territory.

True, but to the original question, why do we overstock in aquariums? Trying to mimc wild conditions for large centrals is nearly impossible and I think we agree on that point.....

 

[Aweshade9]

Well, I guess these guys never got the memo not to "overcrowd" themselves.

[video=youtube_share;B865DRjwC_g]http://youtu.be/B865DRjwC_g[/video]

Fact is that fish live in groups, doesn't matter if they are predator or prey, they all live in close relation to each other and rarely will you ever find fish that are truly solitary. In fact, the solo wet pet is the most unnatural way that you can keep a fish. Cichlids, like pretty much any other fish in the world, will voluntarily overcrowd themselves when not breeding and will live in big groups, coexisting with each other much like any other animal in the world. In the Costa Rican take, you can see dovii swimming among the other non-predatory cichlids as well as mollies, platies, etc. Overcrowded tanks are in fact very natural, far more so than solo wet pets or "pairs" are.

You will not find a single cichlid in the world that is truly solitary or lives away from other "fishmates" in pairs. Even the great emperor cichlid of Lake Tanganyika live in gigantic shoals out in the deep waters and only separate from their group in order to breed and raise their fry before rejoining the giant groups that school throughout the deep waters of the lake.

How many more gallons is that compared to the 180 gallon example the op gave us? With that much space they can swim away if they, if there is too much aggression its easily solved, but in home aquaria they are trapped in a box and thas why I would rather understock than over.

 

[Jc1119]

This was my opinion and practice for years. I am not so sure anymore, and in the tanks i have put some kind of territory making material I saw no significant difference in fish behaviour.

But, again, i do not mix sexes, which, imho, is the worst factor in ' unhealthy' overstocking.

Im experiencing a bit of that myself. 3 females and 2 males hasn't been the easiest to pull off. lol Single sex seems to calm things down ALOT

 

[Miguel]

Yes, but the territorial trait only really appears in the wild when a male fish is ready and looking to breed and when a pair has formed and they are raising fry. In the home aquaria, this occurs all of the time due to the amount that people tend to feed their fish, therefore they are almost always in condition to breed and will produce brood after brood of fry. This is not the case in the wilds, food is not just floating around waiting to be eaten. Pairs split up and go their separate ways after the fry are gone, they don't hang around, they leave and go back to the big groups of fish, seeking to restore their energy and get back into breeding condition. In the wilds, this takes much longer to accomplish and the fish spend more of their time in large groups than they do defending any one territory.

Interesting points.
But are you sure that in the wild cichlids tend to roam around, not staying in any kind of terriory? Am talking CA SA( know zilch about aficans ).

I have fished in south american rivers and lakes and i really got the sense that several species tended to be more or less around some sort of 'place'.

For instance, never cast for cichla in the middle of the river. Always towards shore and close to trees or rocks.

 

[Azedenkae]

This doesn't work so well w/ CA/SA cichlids IME. If it were then I would have never had to get rid of some of my cichlids. My 150g is over stocked, but I can't keep my h. Deppi in there because he has tried to kill everything in the tank. I keep him solo because of this.

OP-I think people over stock because they just love the fish. Plain and simple as that. I like the idea of under stocking though. It would make life so much easier not having to do so many water changes.




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In my experience it works tho, I've kept multiple overstocked tank, and none of them didn't work.

Yes, but the territorial trait only really appears in the wild when a male fish is ready and looking to breed and when a pair has formed and they are raising fry. In the home aquaria, this occurs all of the time due to the amount that people tend to feed their fish, therefore they are almost always in condition to breed and will produce brood after brood of fry. This is not the case in the wilds, food is not just floating around waiting to be eaten. Pairs split up and go their separate ways after the fry are gone, they don't hang around, they leave and go back to the big groups of fish, seeking to restore their energy and get back into breeding condition. In the wilds, this takes much longer to accomplish and the fish spend more of their time in large groups than they do defending any one territory.

Indeed. Take Thorichthys ellioti/maculipinnis for example. In the wild they shoal as well, only breaking up into pairs once in a while to breed (well not as simple as that, but that's basically how it is) and then rejoin the gang and the male and female involved in said breeding might go forever without breeding. In the aquaria, many cichlids that wouldn't breed readily in the wild will reproduce every month or so, maybe even less.

In the end tho, to be honest keeping fish in tanks in and of itself is already unnatural, so why should we really care how much more 'unnatural' it is to do other things? Like having a heater in, or rocks from different regions, or fish from different regions, or feeding food they don't tend to eat in the wild, or any of that stuff. Is there a 'level' of 'unnatural' that tips the scale and makes it bad? I don't think so, unnatural is unnatural to me, and the moment we add them to our tank - or pond even, we're not keeping them 'naturally' and that's that.

So whilst I think keeping a larger number of cichlids together, plus other fish, is more 'natural' than keeping a single cichlid and not let it have any inter-fish interactions (besides the occasional feeder I guess), I don't really care and to be honest I don't think anyone should care. The only thing that matters is if it works or not, and if it does, great, if it doesn't, then sadface. Otherwise yeah whatever.

 

[Miguel]

Saddly true, the above.