Why does everyone slam undergravel filters and their effectiveness?
- Thread starter Asian_Redtail_Catfish
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Asian_Redtail_Catfish;1947402; said:
A quick search online for "nitrate poisoning" is enough for me to continue striving for low levels of nitrate. If a filter removes ammonia and nitrite, it's doing it's job. I agree that this can be done with an UGF, but I've had just as much success with canisters and HOBs which have the benefit of mechanical filtration. With that said, I'll stick with my wet/dry filters for large tanks. It offers the best of both worlds.
ARC, you're missing my point about the nitrates... your UGF will never be able to remove nitrates while other more modern filter designs now can. Hence: UGF = out dated.
And even when considering ammonia & nitrites, your UGF will never be able to have the same bio-capacity as a decent sized canister or wet/dry w/ good media. Maybe you don't need it to, but you asked why other people prefer other designs & that would be a good reason why.
Also, maybe you've got your routine down as far as cleaning your tank goes, but many people find other types of filters easier to clean. A good canister design allows for incredibly easy cleaning, and keeping those solid wastes out of your tank water is probably one of the single best ways to improve water quality over-all.
Another reason would be that in a wet/dry or canister you can add a polishing pad type of media that helps keep the water crystal clear. You'd have to add that extra to your UGF system where it would be integral to these other types of filters.
No one is telling you you can't use a UGF, or that it doesn't work. Only that they have chosen other systems for some of the reasons I've been mentioning. Your UGF IS INDEED out dated.
And even when considering ammonia & nitrites, your UGF will never be able to have the same bio-capacity as a decent sized canister or wet/dry w/ good media. Maybe you don't need it to, but you asked why other people prefer other designs & that would be a good reason why.
Also, maybe you've got your routine down as far as cleaning your tank goes, but many people find other types of filters easier to clean. A good canister design allows for incredibly easy cleaning, and keeping those solid wastes out of your tank water is probably one of the single best ways to improve water quality over-all.
Another reason would be that in a wet/dry or canister you can add a polishing pad type of media that helps keep the water crystal clear. You'd have to add that extra to your UGF system where it would be integral to these other types of filters.
No one is telling you you can't use a UGF, or that it doesn't work. Only that they have chosen other systems for some of the reasons I've been mentioning. Your UGF IS INDEED out dated.
rallysman;1947296; said:
even then you still need water changes to replace minerals etc... in your water... there is no substitute for them when you really think about it...
Nitrate content as low as 50 ppm has been known to kill human infants, known as blue baby syndrome.
If you keep your nitrates under 20 ppm consistently you will see excellent growth results as well as better color and behavior out of your fish.
In terms of UGF, there isn't anything wrong with them. I personally don't use them because I like to use sand or very fine substrate that the fish can easily sift through - which leads to other discussions as far as larger digging fish being able to disrupt the way the filters work by exposing too much of the paneling ect.
In all honesty, if I'm going for simplicity I use sponge filters, if I'm going for a show tank I use canister filters.
If you keep your nitrates under 20 ppm consistently you will see excellent growth results as well as better color and behavior out of your fish.
In terms of UGF, there isn't anything wrong with them. I personally don't use them because I like to use sand or very fine substrate that the fish can easily sift through - which leads to other discussions as far as larger digging fish being able to disrupt the way the filters work by exposing too much of the paneling ect.
In all honesty, if I'm going for simplicity I use sponge filters, if I'm going for a show tank I use canister filters.
one nice thing about not having an UGF is that it eliminates the need for lots of plugs - either with powerheads attached or regular air pumps.
because really, to get real efficient use of an UGF you need to have power heads attached to get good water flow.
the regular airline/airstone/airpump method is not that efficient.
esp. compared to today's modern power filters.
also, no building up of debris underneath the gravel plate creating a nitrate factory..
that has been my beef with UGF's although I have never used them set up as reverse flow, which I am told eliminates much of this build up underneath the gravel plate. I have only maintained them as regular flow..
to me, nothing will replace clean filters + clean gravel + water changes = clean tank..
esp with monster fish loads like many of us have
because really, to get real efficient use of an UGF you need to have power heads attached to get good water flow.
the regular airline/airstone/airpump method is not that efficient.
esp. compared to today's modern power filters.
also, no building up of debris underneath the gravel plate creating a nitrate factory..
that has been my beef with UGF's although I have never used them set up as reverse flow, which I am told eliminates much of this build up underneath the gravel plate. I have only maintained them as regular flow..
to me, nothing will replace clean filters + clean gravel + water changes = clean tank..
esp with monster fish loads like many of us have
I'll even take it one step further...they were the bread and butter of saltwater setups when i first got into the hobby.
My feelings are this:
1) I would never set up a UGF without a reverse flow option.
2) Water changes whether using canister, UGF, or otherwise should be done bi-weekly no exceptions. Its just better for the fish. Yeah...20% of 125 gallons sucks to do but it does work. Watch how much more active, colorful, and how much better your fish grow when you do this.
3) You should be doing a gravel siphon every water change with monster fish no matter what. The size of the dumps these big fish take? C'mon.
The standard procedure is this: A week before each water change (works out to be every other week) switch it to reverse flow. That will push the gunk and nitrate producing bacteria up into the substrate. Do your gravel siphon water change. Then switch them back to normal flow. Repeat.
I used these for YEARS in saltwater (the real nitrate abyss) combined with large aragonite and never had problems. Fish only of course. This was before FOWLR became the staple.
The only reason i don't use them anymore is because i use sand substrates and have a wet/dry now.
My feelings are this:
1) I would never set up a UGF without a reverse flow option.
2) Water changes whether using canister, UGF, or otherwise should be done bi-weekly no exceptions. Its just better for the fish. Yeah...20% of 125 gallons sucks to do but it does work. Watch how much more active, colorful, and how much better your fish grow when you do this.
3) You should be doing a gravel siphon every water change with monster fish no matter what. The size of the dumps these big fish take? C'mon.
The standard procedure is this: A week before each water change (works out to be every other week) switch it to reverse flow. That will push the gunk and nitrate producing bacteria up into the substrate. Do your gravel siphon water change. Then switch them back to normal flow. Repeat.
I used these for YEARS in saltwater (the real nitrate abyss) combined with large aragonite and never had problems. Fish only of course. This was before FOWLR became the staple.
The only reason i don't use them anymore is because i use sand substrates and have a wet/dry now.
Oreo;1947505; said:
You are missing the point about UGF..The way I keep my fish tanks, other filters in my opinion will not control the ammonia and nitrites in my tank and the tank will crash and recycle meaning high ammonia and high nitrites and 0 nitrates...If a filter is handling keeping ammonia and nitrites to 0, it is doing its job, period!!Like I said, I do not change my water that frequently and I don't know what will happen if I used another filter..Will I use another filter, why should I?
By the way, over half of the local fish stores near me use undergravel filters for their filteration in their tanks and they have been in business for years!That says a lot about what they think about undergravel filters..And by the way, fish store owners know what they are doing and know what they are talking about if they have been in business for years..
Asian_Redtail_Catfish;1949494; said:
This is true...of older LFS. To redo their system would be cost prohibitive with most LFS' profit margins, so it it's not broke why fix it. You don't find UGF's in new LFS'...why? for all the above reasons.
Just remember 'what an LFS owner says and what he does are two different things as he is profit motivated' , don't believe it...try buying 2 FX-5's Foe $600. for 150g tank and see it he steers you to a $30 UGF.
UGF's have their place in the aquarium world, as do the other filter systems.
This thread seems to have hit an impasse so if nothing new is to be posted soon, it shall be entombed for all posterity rather than going up in flames.
Dr Joe
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