Why the Monsters? Is It Ethical?

[Dragoner]

Well... we could remember the line from Disney movie: Finding Nemo: "Fish aren't meant to be in a box, kid. It does things to you."

 

[packer43064]

I would say an ability to act naturally in a healthy environment with a minimal of stress. Surely something these overstocked...er "Japanese" style tanks don't provide. Just look at how a species lives in the wild and try to replicate it, quite obvious really.

Even in these larger tanks they can't act naturally. A silver aro doesn't want to swim 3 maybe 4 feet to the left turn around then swim another 4 feet then turn around swim 4 feet to the right then turn around then swim another four feet to the left.

Unless were all going to make JohnPTC 's10k tank for a single aro or for maybe 4-5 silvers then it will never act natural. I don't think we can ever let any monster fish act natural, besides the few who have made the huge, I mean huge tanks. Necro, JohnPTC, which is great for them but for the majority of people we just don't have the money. Does this mean then that I can't keep a silver or two in a 180?

it seems as though a lot of people in this thread are humanizing fish a bit too much.

somebody please define "happy" as it relates to a fish

Happy (in fish terms)=As long as any fish feels at home perse then it's happy.This means that any fish that breeds is obviously happy, feels safe in it's tank, is not stressed and must feel that his tank is at home.

Also if nitrates are kept in check and they can at least swim around in their tank and not hit the sides then they are happy. Like the other person said who bred the palembang puffers. Wouldn't a fish enjoy living in a 250 with plants, wood etc, or a big 500 bare-bottom.

Also, think in Fish terms. A 20 inch. Silver aro for instance. As long as that fish can swim a bit(say a 180), have a staple supply of food, and most importantly to feel safe(predation) then it's happy. Of course this means to have a good enough filtration system, which is obvious for Monster fish.

 

[sandtiger]

Even in these larger tanks they can't act naturally. A silver aro doesn't want to swim 3 maybe 4 feet to the left turn around then swim another 4 feet then turn around swim 4 feet to the right then turn around then swim another four feet to the left.

When I say naturally I mean naturally as it applies to living in an aquarium. Obviously we cannot recreate every detail of a species natural environment, that's common sense, but we can at least strive to do it. Everyone knows for example that catfishes mostly prefer dim lighting and some sort of cover, these are easy to provide. But then I look at the "Japanese" style tanks and see catfishes in bare bottom tanks where their only cover is the other fish its packed in with. Or we can use cichlids as an example, many of them enjoy rocky habitats to explore and dig around and yet we also see them packed together in bare bottom tanks. Creating a completely natural environment is not really possible but it is something to strive for and when we can replicate natural environments to the best of our ability the fish are much more interesting.

 

[Bderick67]

it seems as though a lot of people in this thread are humanizing fish a bit too much.

somebody please define "happy" as it relates to a fish

I really don't think fish have that emotional capacity. Closest your going to get is stressed/unstressed. Basically we are keeping these monster fish and taking away any opportunity for them to use their natural instincts. In the wild fish hunt/forage for food, have a social structure within their species, procreate and rear their young. In captivity very few get to experience any of these let alone all of them. I find it humorous when keepers state that they are providing a natural environment for their monsters.

So if a fish could be "happy", I doubt that any we keep would really be. This thread is loaded with hypocrisy. I still say it boils down to personal opinion, though some common sense needs applied to keep fish unstressed and healthy.

 

[packer43064]

When I say naturally I mean naturally as it applies to living in an aquarium. Obviously we cannot recreate every detail of a species natural environment, that's common sense, but we can at least strive to do it. Everyone knows for example that catfishes mostly prefer dim lighting and some sort of cover, these are easy to provide. But then I look at the "Japanese" style tanks and see catfishes in bare bottom tanks where their only cover is the other fish its packed in with. Or we can use cichlids as an example, many of them enjoy rocky habitats to explore and dig around and yet we also see them packed together in bare bottom tanks. Creating a completely natural environment is not really possible but it is something to strive for and when we can replicate natural environments to the best of our ability the fish are much more interesting.

In that case I totally agree with you on that point. I have a bullhead catfish and I made a little home out of rocks for it so it could hide during the day and keep the lights off most of the time.

 

[Dragoner]

... Basically we are keeping these monster fish and taking away any opportunity for them to use their natural instincts. In the wild fish hunt/forage for food, have a social structure within their species, procreate and rear their young. In captivity very few get to experience any of these let alone all of them. I find it humorous when keepers state that they are providing a natural environment for their monsters...

Bingo... The challenge is to keep them healthy. But we can't give them a river, we can only give them better tanks... In this sense, the entire hobby might be viewed as cruel to begin with.

 

[cchhcc]

If you put a male prisoner in with a female prisoner, would you have breeding? Probably. Would they be "happy?" Probably not.

Of course, that's a HUGE stretch on an analogy, but it makes my point. Breeding is just one sign of good conditions. Honestly though, it is a key sign.

Perhaps we could consider our conditions suitable if we see the following:
1. Breeding
2. Normal behavior (i.e. the absence of repetitive movement [pacing] or abnormally destructive behavior that wouldn't generally be seen in the wild)
3. Eventual growth to full size and with a full life span


Breeding is obvious. Fish either are or aren't reproducing. Behavior is a bit tougher to pin down, however there is lots of information about natural (and unnatural) behavior out there to study. I think we see a good mix of natural and unnatural behavior in captive fish, but glassbanging (outside of breeding related territoriality and the like) has been described many times by very respected experts as pointedly UNnatural. For instance, many cichlids we think of as "aggressive" are actually fairly social in the wild outside of their particular breeding territories and seasons.

Last last point is the one we don't often see. We see literally hundreds of half grown fish on the site -- of all kinds of species. I can't think of seeing more than a handful of monsters that even approach fully grown.




Packer, you asked my opinion of a 20" Aro in an 18" wide tank. Even though I agree that their flexibility makes it possible for them to turn in such an environment, I'd much rather see a larger tank or kiddie pool for him. There has been lots of work done with marine fish exhibits and how they work for the fish in them. Bull sharks, for instance, show high levels of stress and related physical troubles from the result of having to double back on their swimming patterns. I can't remember the exact measurements, but the length of tank required for natural behavior and good health in even a 6' bull shark is massive -- exponentially greater than the length of the fish itself.

Of course, that's a tidal/riverine marine shark species and can't be literally compared to an Aro, but we can learn something from the comparison.

So, IMO, I'd say a 20" Aro would need something more like a 300 gallon Rubbermaid stock tank (and a well decorated one at that) to feel comfortable.

 

[Dragoner]

So, IMO, I'd say a 20" Aro would need something more like a 300 gallon Rubbermaid stock tank (and a well decorated one at that) to feel comfortable.

Popular minimum tank sizes are therefore rendered cruel. Ever see that HUGE Osaka Aquarium (am I right) that was featured in Discovery? It was said to be natural, because Corals spawn in it...

Bottom line is, the only thing that we can answer in this thread is "biggest possible we can give."

 

[Bderick67]

So, IMO, I'd say a 20" Aro would need something more like a 300 gallon Rubbermaid stock tank (and a well decorated one at that) to feel comfortable.

See here is where opinions vary.

IMO for an arowana to really be happy it would take more then a 5' diameter tub. More like a 20' diameter pond with an abundance of overhanging tree branches and floating plants. These branches and plants would be stocked with part of it's food source. These fish are naturally jumpers and suppressing that would really keep them from being happy.

Now is this practical, no? So the aro gets the 5' tub. Space wise it is better then the 18" wide tank, but both are definitely lacking in providing anything near a natural environment.

 

[Eupterus]

I feel they are like any more difficult to care for animal or animal with special, they should not be widely sold to the general public.
So no, having them available is not cruel in itself.

Other then that , it's no more cruel then a person who puts a betta into a lightbulb sized container or who puts a goldfish into a small bowl without a filter. In fact, many of these animals probably suffer then typical monster sized fish since they are cheaper and more easily obtained.

One always hopes that people who come here educate themselves and choose their fish wisely...Yeah I understand it's tough with this hobby since it caters to wealthier people by the very nature of what these larger fish need. Not everyone who wants a huge tank will ever have space or money for it.