That also depends on the species of cichlid. For example with cichla compare cb kelberi or azul with wc ones. The cb fish usually lack the color, markings, and body shape of the wc fish. With cichla it takes a lot longer to tank bred and line breed and it seems like even with that you end up with some cb traits. Most of the purist that I know prefer wc fish.
Wild Caught, F1, Why?
- Thread starter Razor7Music
- Start date
I understand the desire to get f1s and buy as close to the wild as you can. I have some issue with the idea of collecting and selling wild fish, but it is such a complicated issue that it really isn't worth arguing over. I know the hybrid issue is rampant with Africans, especially the peacocks and the lake Victorians. I bought most of mine from a large breeder not too far away from my home, but I have heard they have some purity problems, especially in their peacocks, and if the people on cichlid forums are correct their zebra Zebra Obliquidens too. I did get my hands on some Add to Pundimillia nyereri that are the offspring of f2s, which I am hoping to breed, also want to get the offspring of a f1 and f2 (would that make the fry f2.5s?)
Anyway good luck with finding the cyps, They are amazing fish. But they can be pricy, from the large breeder I bought my vics from they are generally $20 same with the pet stores that get them. I was lucky enough to find a hobbyist who would sell them to me for a very low price.
Anyway good luck with finding the cyps, They are amazing fish. But they can be pricy, from the large breeder I bought my vics from they are generally $20 same with the pet stores that get them. I was lucky enough to find a hobbyist who would sell them to me for a very low price.
Just an editorial opinion here, on "line bred" vs wild coloration.
When something is bred for "human" color preference (not for health enhancing) reasons, e.g. one of those solid "orange/red" Etroplus maculatus (orange chromides), is that human color preference really better?
To my eyes, not in the least.
When I see cichlids bred for un-natural colors, be it a blue oscar, or pink parrot, it makes them seem to me on the same par with fancy goldfish, or Glowfish, hardly legitimate cichlids. (maybe I'm just an old scrape stuck in my ways)
But I had a few solid "gold" color managuense fry in some a number of spawns decades back, and after growing a few out, I thought they were boring and looked to a generic, non descriptive Parachromis, that was un-identifiable.
Not trying to say my way is right, but I'd take a natural color anything, before some man made extra red or blue variant, be it pink peacock Aulonacara, a black angel or one of those (another bad result of line breeding just for looks) immune deficient EBJDs, or columnaris prone hybrid FHs.
When something is bred for "human" color preference (not for health enhancing) reasons, e.g. one of those solid "orange/red" Etroplus maculatus (orange chromides), is that human color preference really better?
To my eyes, not in the least.
When I see cichlids bred for un-natural colors, be it a blue oscar, or pink parrot, it makes them seem to me on the same par with fancy goldfish, or Glowfish, hardly legitimate cichlids. (maybe I'm just an old scrape stuck in my ways)
But I had a few solid "gold" color managuense fry in some a number of spawns decades back, and after growing a few out, I thought they were boring and looked to a generic, non descriptive Parachromis, that was un-identifiable.
Not trying to say my way is right, but I'd take a natural color anything, before some man made extra red or blue variant, be it pink peacock Aulonacara, a black angel or one of those (another bad result of line breeding just for looks) immune deficient EBJDs, or columnaris prone hybrid FHs.
I totally agree with you, Duane. I wasn't referring to hybrids, or mutations, but of actual pure species, where certain characteristics have been tweaked. As an example, I have seen wild L. caeruleus, I have owned & bred F1's from wild caught stock that were collected in the wild by the breeder, and I have owned German line bred strains of the same species that have crisper markings, and brighter, more even overall color, than either the wild fish, or their offspring. I have seen the same in numerous other species as well. This is where I used the term "more colorful", compared to WC.
The moment we remove these fish from the wild, place them in a glass box, and force them to choose a mate from a selected number of individuals, we are manipulating the outcome. Every single fry that you produced over the years amigo has been man made.
The moment we remove these fish from the wild, place them in a glass box, and force them to choose a mate from a selected number of individuals, we are manipulating the outcome. Every single fry that you produced over the years amigo has been man made.
Just to expand on my previous comment. Most people in the hobby believe the "yellow labs" (L. caeruleus) with either vertical barring, or white bellies, are genetically poor specimens, when in fact both of these traits are common in the two Lions Cove collection locations. My friend spent 6 months on Lake Malawi working for the late Stuart Grant, and while there set up a number of display tanks for Stuart. One of those was a yellow lab display, and almost all of the fish displayed some barring, a couple of fish that appeared to be sub dom, probably females, displayed whitish bellies. I think that I may still have pics of this set up somewhere on my HD. His breeding group looked the same, even after years of being in his tank.
The person that collected those fish saw one of my female German line bred labs, and thought that it was a male, until he saw it with a mouthful of eggs. My goal was to breed this very colorful and vibrant line bred female, with my best male F1 lab. In my mind, it was a match made in heaven. This was a lot of years ago, when WC specimens of this species were uber rare in the hobby, and even if you found them they generally sold for $100-125 per.
The unfortunate irony of that planned breeding was the female refused to breed with the F1 male. to the point of eventually becoming egg bound, and later dying from that complication.
Anyways, just thought I would share before the next sever crash. lol
The person that collected those fish saw one of my female German line bred labs, and thought that it was a male, until he saw it with a mouthful of eggs. My goal was to breed this very colorful and vibrant line bred female, with my best male F1 lab. In my mind, it was a match made in heaven. This was a lot of years ago, when WC specimens of this species were uber rare in the hobby, and even if you found them they generally sold for $100-125 per.
The unfortunate irony of that planned breeding was the female refused to breed with the F1 male. to the point of eventually becoming egg bound, and later dying from that complication.
Anyways, just thought I would share before the next sever crash. lol
Tom's Tanganyikans had Cyps for $12ea.+shipping last I checked.
I will keep my goldfish, guppies and mollies I like them very much, thank you. They are hardier and look nicer (in their own way) than any cichlid. (except tilapias, but you probably think most tilapia strains are abominations, too.)
Just because you are purist doesn't mean everyone has to be. Even the fish don't agree with you half the time, seeing how easily they will crossbreed.
I remember when the first red/ pink Tilapia strains came out, they were actually bred that way because they were supposed to appear more appetizing looking for the finicky American restaurant market.
and by the way RD my editorial wasn't aimed at you or anyone in particular, just there to state there are many many beautiful natural species, that have evolved over the years not just for outward appearance, but survival and health benefits for their environment, as well and often overlooked for some cooky cutter designer strain.
And yes I am a purest., and have kept many Tilapines, there are probably over 100 species of Tilapines
I think some of the pure strain Tilapine species are way more interesting, than the man made pink ones .
Coptodon (Tilapia bythbates) below from Lake Bermin
Stomatepia pindu below, another Tilapine from Lake Barumbi mbu
and Saratherodon (formerly Tilapia) linnelli
and the ultra-saline lake Natron Tilapine, Alcolapia
and by the way RD my editorial wasn't aimed at you or anyone in particular, just there to state there are many many beautiful natural species, that have evolved over the years not just for outward appearance, but survival and health benefits for their environment, as well and often overlooked for some cooky cutter designer strain.
And yes I am a purest., and have kept many Tilapines, there are probably over 100 species of Tilapines
I think some of the pure strain Tilapine species are way more interesting, than the man made pink ones .
Coptodon (Tilapia bythbates) below from Lake Bermin
Stomatepia pindu below, another Tilapine from Lake Barumbi mbu
and Saratherodon (formerly Tilapia) linnelli
and the ultra-saline lake Natron Tilapine, Alcolapia
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Yeah, but 50 years of people mistreating tilapia, 80 years of people mistreating mollies and guppies, 170 years of people mistreating bettas, and 4000 years of people mistreating goldfish have taken already tough fish and turned them almost invulnerable. They can handle crazy amounts of ammonia/nitrite/nitrate, insane temperature and DO fluctuations, and amounts of toxins that would be fatal to many other things. Yes, there are wild fish that are tougher, I'm sure a devil's hole pupfish can out-survive just about anything else, but these are fish that will take more than just negligence to kill.
And I like long fins and bright colors. I mean, I don't see you keeping stonerollers or prussian carp,
duanes
and
RD.
Why not? stonerollers have some really cool behaviors.
Because you want fish with bright colors and nice fins! Just admit it, we all want more or less the same things.
Interesting looks, behavior, bright colors and nice fins, and maybe a little grace thrown in. As far as I can see, the only purpose of F1 is the thrill of owning 'the real thing'. But as
RD.
said, the only way to have 'the real thing' is to go observe it in the wild.
And I like long fins and bright colors. I mean, I don't see you keeping stonerollers or prussian carp,
duanes
and
RD.
Why not? stonerollers have some really cool behaviors. Because you want fish with bright colors and nice fins! Just admit it, we all want more or less the same things.
Interesting looks, behavior, bright colors and nice fins, and maybe a little grace thrown in. As far as I can see, the only purpose of F1 is the thrill of owning 'the real thing'. But as
RD.
said, the only way to have 'the real thing' is to go observe it in the wild.
I am sorry but your information is outdated, Toms Tanganikans has $20 cyps. Some going down to around $15.
People like different things, I cannot stand OB Peacocks, I think they look horrible, but there are people who love them. As long as the fish doesn't have major issues because of its genetic selection, preferences are preferences. The thing is you actually get to have this debate, because both F1 and line bred fish are so prevalent. When talking about many of the rarer cichlids, what is in the hobby is all we can get are hands on, so locating someone who has a good strain of Zebra Obliquidens or another either protected or extinct in wild fish, is the best one can do. The really value of F1s is they will probably be genetically distinct from your fish. In an aquarium you have limited gene flow, so problems can arise, and f1 can set the genetic strait in a sense, but if you aren't breeding the fish, you probably shouldn't get F1s
Also JH, your assertion about Devils Hole Pupfish is incorrect, they are extremely sensitive, which is why it costs so much to breed them. They need really warm water. Sure if you crank up the heat they will do great while any other fish dies from low oxygen and heat stress, but if it gets cold, they can't do that. If you want the most adaptable fish get some desert gobies. doesn't matter if the water is fresh or saltier than the sea, really warm, are near freezing, they seem to not care.
But to answer the original question, I don't think there is a way to tell if cyps are f1s or not, the best you can do is look for variation in the fish, the more variation the more likely they are wild, the more uniform, they are probably from a limited stock. My cyps are probably pretty far removed from the wild, and look more or less the same. That is just what I can glean from a wild photo vs the fish in my tank.
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