It would be interesting to know if his loaches are still alive
And if they ever laid eggs afterwards...Wondering if our Clown Loaches may be trying to spawn?
- Thread starter wild bill
- Start date
And if they ever laid eggs afterwards...
An older video of a couple of mine going at each other. Thought it could be relevant to the topic and something for some people to compare with the behaviors they see from their clowns.
If a person was able to get a hold of the needed hormone should the loaches then be placed in a seperate tank. Also should the water used be softened and ph lowered to match their natural water.
The water conditions probably won't matter if one uses hormones...because to breed them that way as far as I've read...you need to manually strip the fish from eggs and milt and do the entire thing artificially outside the fish....totally not fun for anything involved..One should be more interested about how to incubate the eggs in this case..
It also probably depends where your loaches come from..The quotes below are for the Musi River in Sumatra....a bit different than what is accepted online for ideal conditions for clown loaches....
The pH was monitored throughout the study, although not altered to a desirable level since it was already within the values of the previously proven window. The values 6.86-8.00 are similar to the values in Legendre et al. 2012, where there was no significant relationship found between the egg production and pH. Seemingly this parameter is of lesser important to the subject, but is still a factor that should not be ruled out considering the difference between hormone induced egg production could be considerably different than a spontaneous natural production of gametes. If hormones are introduced in the body or environment of the fish there could have significant effect on the outcome (Carnevali et al. 2010; Quesada-Garcia et al. 2012; Su et al. 2013).
One of the biggest issues with this study might have been at what time of the year it was carried out. Since all the specimens were wild caught and not breed for generations as many other ornamental species, the biological clock might still be an important factor. If C. macracanthus is a seasonal spawner, spawning in September – December it is plausible that it is important to breed them in this period under in vitro conditions to increase the chances of success.
The above just caught my eye as my fish had their "spawn like" in exactly September to December window....
It has been shown in a previous study were clown loaches have been monitored over several years that a higher proportion of individuals were sexually mature at 26-27ºC than 30-31ºC (Legendre et al. 2012), something to consider in future studies. This fact is strengthened by the discovery of 26ºC as the optimum temperature for clown loach egg incubation (Baras et al. 2012b), maybe this would also be the optimum temperature for spawning since this could reveal that throughout the evolution of this species this has been the most consistent measurement value. Parameters throughout the evolutionary development should not be discarded without further research (Recknagel et al. 2014; Bowen et al. 2013). Pankhurst et al. (1996) showed that water temperature in rainbow trout seemed to be the most important factor in the time prior to ovulation. A factor the author would take more into count in future studies.
How female clown loaches deal with eggs...
It is considered that fish can experience retaining, reabsorbing or resting of their eggs if interrupted in the reproducing cycle according to Rideout et al. 2005. Depending on when in the cycle of egg maturity the fish experienced disturbance or lack of stimuli they experience 1) retaining of the eggs when they were fully developed and the female were ready to spawn but did not 2) reabsorbing, shortly after the oocytes begun to mature the maturation is stopped and 3) resting, egg production is stopped before the yolk forms within the egg and the premature eggs remains for a longer period of time in the ovaries
Speaking from experience please stop now.
Prior to focusing on breeding not quite so impossible cactus plecos I kept the same group of clown loaches for over 25 years.
Yes the females cycle several times a year. Most of the time they 'reasorb' but if stressed white infertile eggs are expelled.
Are you prepared to do the calculations to properly tranquillize them so you can inject them without causing harm?
Are you prepared to try different hormones and combination of them to find the right combination?
Are you prepared to do several injections a day with the same fish.
Again there are calculations for dosages and for thinning the dosage so it will go thru a small bore needle without injecting a large of fluid into your prized loach.
This venture is not grab a loach, stick a needle in its side once, and sit back and wait. If it was then the information would be available. If you are not a professional it is highly likely you will kill your treasures.
In the end I chose to donate mine to the Shedd Aquarium where they still happily swim in an environment much larger than I could ever afford. My last two I donated to the Belle Island Aquarium.
Jim
Prior to focusing on breeding not quite so impossible cactus plecos I kept the same group of clown loaches for over 25 years.
Yes the females cycle several times a year. Most of the time they 'reasorb' but if stressed white infertile eggs are expelled.
Are you prepared to do the calculations to properly tranquillize them so you can inject them without causing harm?
Are you prepared to try different hormones and combination of them to find the right combination?
Are you prepared to do several injections a day with the same fish.
Again there are calculations for dosages and for thinning the dosage so it will go thru a small bore needle without injecting a large of fluid into your prized loach.
This venture is not grab a loach, stick a needle in its side once, and sit back and wait. If it was then the information would be available. If you are not a professional it is highly likely you will kill your treasures.
In the end I chose to donate mine to the Shedd Aquarium where they still happily swim in an environment much larger than I could ever afford. My last two I donated to the Belle Island Aquarium.
Jim
From what I have read maybe the problem lies with the male loaches. Or some factor with the water conditions causing eggs not to develop.
It's a bit more complicated than that .......
https://www.was.org/documents/MeetingPresentations/AQUA2012/AQUA2012_0621.pdf
https://www.was.org/documents/MeetingPresentations/AQUA2012/AQUA2012_0621.pdf
There's a lot of details in the below link on hormonal breeding but also on sexual maturation conditions, egg development conditions, etc....Its probably useful to know if one wants to provide similar conditions to try to breed clown loaches naturally...
https://www.google.ie/patents/EP226...ved=0ahUKEwiF_rn1jcXRAhWDHpoKHfS6DNEQ6AEIGzAA
Some quotes for those not willing to read the full text:
Conditioning the adults:
In order to study the influential parameters on sexual maturation of C. macracanthus captive breeding facilities in closed circuit adapted to maintenance of this species have been designed and built on the Depok station (Indonesia). Broodstock of C. macracanthus from Sumatra (N = 66; 70% of females) and a group from Kalimantan (N = 59; 75% female) were reared at a density of 6 to 7 fish per m 3.
Each rearing tank (10 m 3) is supplied with recycled water (flow rate = 8.2 m 3 .h "') by means of a mechanical filter, a biological filter and a UV lamp ( sterilization). In order to reduce stress, the fish are isolated in a dark room. This thermally isolated room also helps regulate temperature throughout the year at a level selected between 25 ° C and 32 ° C. Each closed circuit is supplied with well water. supersaturated with gas, the water must be pre-aerated for 24 hours before being used for breeding. The monthly values of water temperature fluctuated between 30 and 32 ° C for 14 months, then thetemperature was adjusted to 26 and 27 0 C for 6 months.
Temperature:
Information related to the study of the ecology of the species in the natural environment, plus experimental studies of the effect of temperature on egg incubation's success indicates that the beach Temperature falling to around 26- 28 0 C is optimal for reproduction of the species. ....
......It does not seem, however, that the species naturally reproduce in water temperatures greater than 28.0 0 C since this reproduction would be doomed to failure because of embryo mortality.
Food:
they may in particular be fed 6 days per week in the morning with food compounds comprising for example between 35 and 45% protein and between 5 and 15% lipids; the choice of the feeding part of the knowledge of those skilled in the art, it is able to adapt this power supply if necessary. The earthworm intake at night is essential for getting good sires.
Ph:
The water used preferably has a pH between 7.0 and 8.0, a conductivity of between 100 and 300 S / cm and its oxygen concentration is between 6.0 and 8.0 mg / L.
Egg development and larvae:
Incubation of eggs in standing water resulted in an abnormal embryonic development, as evidenced by an almost total lack of movement of the end of developing embryos, and by the almost total mortality (90%) of the larvae hatching. However, incubated in the same conditions on an oscillating tray eggs develop and hatch normally obtained with more than 85% of normal larvae ie viable and active.
Indonesia, our work demonstrates a high sensitivity of eggs to water temperatures above 28 0 C (which eggs of most tropical fish develop normally), as well as temperatures below 24 ° C....
...In addition, larvae obtained show significant distortion and any of them is not viable; only the temperature range from 24 ° C to 28 0 C allowed the obtaining means hatching percentage higher than 40% with a high proportion of normal andviable larvae.....A temperature of 26 ° C is recommended for the incubation of eggs of C. macracanthus, from both populations that Sumatra Borneo
Larval rearing is not an issue, since the studies of the inventors have shown that in feeding conditions (nauplii à'Artemia excess) and a satisfactory water quality (high dissolved oxygen concentration, ammonia concentration and low nitrites, neutral pH, temperature 28-30 ° C ....) survival rates between 60 and 90% after one months of aging. After two months of aging, juveniles can be marketed.
https://www.google.ie/patents/EP226...ved=0ahUKEwiF_rn1jcXRAhWDHpoKHfS6DNEQ6AEIGzAA
Some quotes for those not willing to read the full text:
Conditioning the adults:
In order to study the influential parameters on sexual maturation of C. macracanthus captive breeding facilities in closed circuit adapted to maintenance of this species have been designed and built on the Depok station (Indonesia). Broodstock of C. macracanthus from Sumatra (N = 66; 70% of females) and a group from Kalimantan (N = 59; 75% female) were reared at a density of 6 to 7 fish per m 3.
Each rearing tank (10 m 3) is supplied with recycled water (flow rate = 8.2 m 3 .h "') by means of a mechanical filter, a biological filter and a UV lamp ( sterilization). In order to reduce stress, the fish are isolated in a dark room. This thermally isolated room also helps regulate temperature throughout the year at a level selected between 25 ° C and 32 ° C. Each closed circuit is supplied with well water. supersaturated with gas, the water must be pre-aerated for 24 hours before being used for breeding. The monthly values of water temperature fluctuated between 30 and 32 ° C for 14 months, then thetemperature was adjusted to 26 and 27 0 C for 6 months.
Temperature:
Information related to the study of the ecology of the species in the natural environment, plus experimental studies of the effect of temperature on egg incubation's success indicates that the beach Temperature falling to around 26- 28 0 C is optimal for reproduction of the species. ....
......It does not seem, however, that the species naturally reproduce in water temperatures greater than 28.0 0 C since this reproduction would be doomed to failure because of embryo mortality.
Food:
they may in particular be fed 6 days per week in the morning with food compounds comprising for example between 35 and 45% protein and between 5 and 15% lipids; the choice of the feeding part of the knowledge of those skilled in the art, it is able to adapt this power supply if necessary. The earthworm intake at night is essential for getting good sires.
Ph:
The water used preferably has a pH between 7.0 and 8.0, a conductivity of between 100 and 300 S / cm and its oxygen concentration is between 6.0 and 8.0 mg / L.
Egg development and larvae:
Incubation of eggs in standing water resulted in an abnormal embryonic development, as evidenced by an almost total lack of movement of the end of developing embryos, and by the almost total mortality (90%) of the larvae hatching. However, incubated in the same conditions on an oscillating tray eggs develop and hatch normally obtained with more than 85% of normal larvae ie viable and active.
Indonesia, our work demonstrates a high sensitivity of eggs to water temperatures above 28 0 C (which eggs of most tropical fish develop normally), as well as temperatures below 24 ° C....
...In addition, larvae obtained show significant distortion and any of them is not viable; only the temperature range from 24 ° C to 28 0 C allowed the obtaining means hatching percentage higher than 40% with a high proportion of normal andviable larvae.....A temperature of 26 ° C is recommended for the incubation of eggs of C. macracanthus, from both populations that Sumatra Borneo
Larval rearing is not an issue, since the studies of the inventors have shown that in feeding conditions (nauplii à'Artemia excess) and a satisfactory water quality (high dissolved oxygen concentration, ammonia concentration and low nitrites, neutral pH, temperature 28-30 ° C ....) survival rates between 60 and 90% after one months of aging. After two months of aging, juveniles can be marketed.
Part of the aquaculture course offered by UofHawaii has a section about hormonal manipulation. The Chinese Catfish Clarias fuscus has been reared with use of hormones in Hawaii by fairly small scale aquaculture companies for some time now and UH also has PDF online with procedure.
