Wood Digesting Pleco and Sponge filter

[RD.]

The biggest difference, from the aquarists viewpoint, is that most Africans will be too aggressive to keep without rocks or other structure, so few people will deprive them of it

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I know that you aren't an African cichlid guy, but the reality is if/when structure to defend is removed, such as rocks, wood, etc, it removes the vast majority of aggression. This is actually used by collectors/exporters and even breeders as a manner in which to reduce fighting, injury and deaths. I discuss that in my bloat sticky and a collector on Lake Tanganyika that I used to converse with.

Most hobbyists don't like the aesthetics of a bare tank, which is why one seldom sees this type of set up. The structure, and lack of space required is what creates the high aggression levels in many species of African cichlids.

Sometimes what we feel is most natural
and humane for our fish in captivity, is not reality for the fish.

 

[Krismo962]

Is there a reason they rasp at the wood?

I would say some corny joke about sucking wood but I can't think of any

 

[jjohnwm]

.

I know that you aren't an African cichlid guy, but the reality is if/when structure to defend is removed, such as rocks, wood, etc, it removes the vast majority of aggression. This is actually used by collectors/exporters and even breeders as a manner in which to reduce fighting, injury and deaths. I discuss that in my bloat sticky and a collector on Lake Tanganyika that I used to converse with.

Most hobbyists don't like the aesthetics of a bare tank, which is why one seldom sees this type of set up. The structure, and lack of space required is what creates the high aggression levels in many species of African cichlids.

Sometimes what we feel is most natural
and humane for our fish in captivity, is not reality for the fish.

I'm definitely not...and I suppose I should keep my yap shut about them for that reason. I try not to listen to and parrot the "common wisdom" about topics with which I am personally unfamiliar, just so that I don't make blunders like this one. I guess that providing all that structure simply produces more prime hiding spots to fight over in the cramped confines of an aquarium?

I definitely agree that "natural" isn't always the same as "best" when it comes to keeping animals in captivity. I think this is mostly a result of not properly analyzing and considering all the details of what "natural" really entails; such things as the animal protein which is consumed by fish that outwardly appear to be eating only aufwuchs/algae.

In any case, methods used commercially to safely jam the maximum number of fish into X cubic inches of space, or to grow the maximum poundage of fish flesh in the absolute minimum time for the absolute minimum dollars spent...are obviously effective. Perhaps many people like to think of their home aquariums in the same light, but I would hazard to guess that most aquarists want to enjoy something that they can delude themselves into believing is akin to "natural".

I guess a perfect example of this is the commercial catfish feed pellets used to raise cats for market. I once assumed that they would be nutritionally perfect, but thebiggerthebetter documented a big improvement in the condition and longevity of his fish when switching from this type of food to hobby-grade pellets, which are geared towards complete long-term nutrition rather than grow-'em-up-fast-for-harvest efficiency...better than natural, at least in the short term.

For me at least, I just have a difficult time thinking of living creatures as mere machines that can be tuned and analyzed to run with perfect efficiency. A man-made machine can be fully understood and optimized for maximum performance. The natural machine that is a living organism will never be understood that perfectly and completely, so attempting to mimic "nature" just seems to be my default thought setting.

I would say some corny joke about sucking wood but I can't think of any

Actually, it sounds as though you can...

 

[RD.]

I guess that providing all that structure simply produces more prime hiding spots to fight over in the cramped confines of an aquarium?

That, and feeding territories that become established over time, the same as they would be in nature. The exception being that in a glass box, the amount of territory to escape is typically very limited. In the standard 4-6ft long tank, that often doesn't end well for the less dominant fish.

When conversing with Mark Young (at that time a collector & exporter living on the shores of Lake Tanganyika) he told me that in his experience dominant males would stop chasing at the 6-8ft mark, so he built all of his concrete vats 12 ft. End of serious aggression problems.

 

[fishdance]

I thought this discussion was keeping clear of nutrition requirements?

It's really up to individual fish keepers how they want to house their fish but if you wouldn't keep a schooling fish on its own, then obviously we can sense fish moods/ stress/ etc.

I occasionally bred some of the larger plecostomus species like multiradiatus, gibbicepts, joselimaianus, etc and once the royal panaque (hormone induced) which keeps getting mentioned. Sensing their mood is an essential part of my fish keeping.

Similarly when I have to move large fish, it's critical to communicate - sync - share energies both ways to calm them down. I've broken a collar bone, cracked ribs and injured fish until I realised this.

 

[RD.]

I thought this discussion was keeping clear of nutrition requirements?

It's really up to individual fish keepers how they want to house their fish but if you wouldn't keep a schooling fish on its own, then obviously we can sense fish moods/ stress/ etc.

I occasionally bred some of the larger plecostomus species like multiradiatus, gibbicepts, joselimaianus, etc and once the royal panaque (hormone induced) which keeps getting mentioned. Sensing their mood is an essential part of my fish keeping.

Similarly when I have to move large fish, it's critical to communicate - sync - share energies both ways to calm them down. I've broken a collar bone, cracked ribs and injured fish until I realised this.

I agree, I have been a keen student of fish behavior for over 50 years, and the last large fish (14" Amphilophus") I moved with my bare hands. It was almost like he went to sleep in my hands. But having personally kept fish classified by humans as "wood eating", and observed many hours of many others kept in both wood, and non-wood environments, I saw no issues to the detriment of their health, assumed, or otherwise.

 

[FESHMAN]

Is there a reason they rasp at the wood?

There is some speculation that they digest the bacteria that breaks down the wood rather than the wood itself. I'm not very sure if that's true or not but it makes sense since the wood in the feces doesn't seem to get digested rather (extruded).

 

[RD.]

There is some speculation that they digest the bacteria that breaks down the wood rather than the wood itself. I'm not very sure if that's true or not but it makes sense since the wood in the feces doesn't seem to get digested rather (extruded).

Yes, asked and answered.

Plecos in the wild don't eat wood because they "enjoy" eating a **** sandwich all day, every day. They do so to survive. This feeding behavior was not created out of a need for enjoyment, or pleasure, or because it makes plecos happy, it was part of an evolutionary trait that was the result of the natural feast or famine cycle that nature forced this genus/species in to. Wood eating plecos have evolved and adapted to survive under conditions where most fish would perish. And if you read the previous scientific papers that were linked to in the other thread on this topic, you will understand that the wood eating behavior is out of the need (in the wild) to utilize & promote certain bacteria in their gut. We cannot assume that this is the same requirement in a glass box, or that the same microbiome is being created in a captive fishes gut, vs those same species in the wild. Sorry, not so simple. I welcome future research on this subject.

The topic and understanding of microbiomes found in the gut of a fish, let alone genus/species specific fish, is pretty much in its infancy. Speculation and assumptions is what lead previous researchers to assume that wood eating plecos, digested nutrients from wood. It seems that those early researchers and hobbyists from years ago, were wrong.

If we are going to assume things, I would assume that in the wild plecos rasp on wood to promote & grow certain bacteria in their microbiome, with those gut microbiota bacteria that are found in nature assisting them with the digestion and assimilation of the nutrients found in foods of low nutritional matter, that these fish consume (in nature) on a regular basis. In captivity all bets are off. Not only would the bacteria be different, and found at different levels if at all in their guts, but with captive diets those bacteria payloads that are typically found in wild fish, would no longer be required. The microbiome of a captive fish, would simply not match that of a fish freshly collected in the wild. Wood eating, or otherwise.

 

[RD.]

I moved the dietary portion (microbiomes etc) of this discussion back to where it will stay at the top. For those interested ......

Can Plecos Digest Wood? | MonsterFishKeepers.com

 

[tlindsey]

The shredded wood particles from the rasping pleco is not effecting the add sponge filters. I just give a light squeeze on the sponges on wc day. Tested water all parameters good Nitrate 10ppm.

In the pic wood