Would like input from ATF keepers
- Thread starter DB junkie
- Start date
I think in that 10 by 4, you could maintain any six of the smaller species for life. Or you could maintain a GATF for life. That's it. The tigers or the GATF and nothing else. You'll also need to run stupid current through the tank to keep them happy. That is assuming of course that the manna from heaven idea of yours is able to mitigate their natural tendency to want to be intolerant of their congeners as they get larger.
Why just the one GATF in a 10 x 4? Cause it will look like this GATF in this 10 x 4 x 4:
If you go larger you may be able to get away with more, but you asked for opinions on a 10 by 4 so that's what I'm giving you.
Based on the latest knowledge that I have coupled with my experiences, if I were you, I'd pick one tiger who is my absolute favorite and grow him out into the most impressive specimen that I can.
Why just the one GATF in a 10 x 4? Cause it will look like this GATF in this 10 x 4 x 4:
If you go larger you may be able to get away with more, but you asked for opinions on a 10 by 4 so that's what I'm giving you.
Based on the latest knowledge that I have coupled with my experiences, if I were you, I'd pick one tiger who is my absolute favorite and grow him out into the most impressive specimen that I can.
But remember ATFs require sufficient airspace between water surface and lid for the occasional feeder swallow...
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I have no desire whatsoever to keep a Gatf. I fell in love with Tigerfang's group, and really only have interest in keeping Vatfs and Tatfs.
I believe keeping nothing BUT Tigers in the tank is a bad idea. I've always used Dithers and until I see negative effects I will continue to. Hell I spent half a decade growing Dithers for this project dangit, I'm going to use them!
The "manna from heaven idea" of mine isn't to mitigate their natural tendency to want to be intolerant of their congeners as they get larger, but rather to simply see if this natural tendency to kill each other when larger has anything to do with the amount of food available.
You seem to be a firm believer in what happens in the wild will also hold true in our glass cages and I simply disagree.
Look at the history of some of the predatory fish we keep.....
Armatus were thought to be solo only fish. After the price fell on it's face its now common place to see multiple fish kept together despite all of us seeing Jeremy Wade pull a smaller one out of a larger one's mouth making it obvious they will prey on each other. Does that keep people from keeping multiple fish together? Nope.
Aimara are the most aggressive freshwater fish on the planet. Known to kill anything that hits the water. When I got my Aimara 2 years ago and decided to keep it with rays how many people here do you think thought it was a good idea? NONE. 2 years later this combo has brought me more joy then any other combination of fish I've ever kept. How many do you see in community settings these days?
Do you think a Hawaii Dragon Moray would be tolerant of another eel small enough to eat "sharing" his rock lair in the wild? Nope. It would be lunch. However when kept well fed in an aquarium you can mix them with eels small enough to eat with success. Maybe it's coincidence, but maybe it has to do with the amount of food available?
Ever thought that the amount of food available in the wild has anything to do with why fish become intolerant of each other once the reach adult hood?
Are Odoe intolerant of each other as adults? Cause I believe these fish do better when kept in groups. How are we so sure ATF are any different? Didn't Mr. Wade show us their natural tendency to hunt as a pack? While on the subject of Odoe isn't it kind of weird they obtain roughly the same size as the non goliath ATFs yet only require what? 1/5 the tank size as ATF?
And on the subject of a bigger tank.......
I live in a rental house. I've changed jobs a bunch trying to find an employer capable of keeping me busy. I am limited to tanks I can move in and out of houses I rent. I've found a job I'm happy with and will likely begin looking at houses soon. IF I save what I spend a year on the hobby I've got the only thing holding me back, a down payment. A house may be a few years out, but let's be realistic, how long will it take for a V/T ATF to "outgrow" a 10x4? Once I have the house tank size won't be an issue. I take this hobby pretty seriously. Anyone that's seen my filtration systems or stock lists know this. What I'd like to build would be in the 5 digit size for gallons, but may have to settle for something a bit smaller, but a few thousand gallons should be no problem at all, pretty sure the filter I have now would be plenty for it.
I guess I just thought this community would be a little more supportive of an idea like this. Just seems kind of ironic how many people are keeping ATF on a small scale but when someone wants to go big with it, all of a sudden it becomes a bad idea?
Al,
I am very supportive of your idea. I don't know why you would get the impression that I'm not.
I should have been more clear. When I said nothing else, I was referring to 'main' fish. I agree, expendable dithers are essential. However, even Tigerfang's group only got to the point that they were just starting to reach mature size. To be honest, there really aren't any examples in the hobby of a group of large, mature ATF being kept together long term. I personally advocate keeping them solo, but I recognize that a group could work. However, if they were my fish, I'd rather have one flawless crown jewel than a group of fish that constantly scrap and bicker with one another, EVEN IF they do play nice once mature. That's just my personal preference though. I've stated that they do turn on each other in the wild (which is well documented), which explains problems such as the problems experienced by Sashimimaster, but that might not be the problem with everyone. It might just come down to finding individual fish who have desirable personalities. I've kept enough ATF now that I do believe that they're smart enough to be individuals.
As for your tank, I think it would be a long, long time before your fish outgrew it. Even with a six pack (you have 3v and 3t, right?) in your 10x4, I feel that you could keep all of them with your dithers (and by dithers, I mean swimming fish that can handle the violent current plus any bottom dwellers of choice) for essentially as long as you want to. The V's are unlikely to get much over about 20" and the T's will likely not get much beyond 24". It'll also take a long time for them to get there.
If I had your tank and plans, I'd feel very comfortable with not needing to upgrade. Though as the fish get bigger, you'd probably have to remove any fancy decorations. I think a six pack of tigers would be fine in your setup, but it would be FULL with them in there. But still, I'd run my tigers, add loads of current as they grow until I get to that magic GPH that is 50x my volume and call it a day. Any upgrades that you do would be probably only be because you wanted to hook your fish up, not because they really needed it.
I wish you and I could actually talk about this over a beer or something. I do support your idea. I want it to work. I really do. You just asked for any negatives and I threw them out there. I can be a bit terse with my delivery at times, and for that I apologize.
I want to see you with a six pack of huge yellowtail tigers. I'll help however I can Al; even if that means telling you the negatives. If I bring this stuff up now, at least you're aware of them and can potentially mitigate these issues before they become real problems.
I am very supportive of your idea. I don't know why you would get the impression that I'm not.
I should have been more clear. When I said nothing else, I was referring to 'main' fish. I agree, expendable dithers are essential. However, even Tigerfang's group only got to the point that they were just starting to reach mature size. To be honest, there really aren't any examples in the hobby of a group of large, mature ATF being kept together long term. I personally advocate keeping them solo, but I recognize that a group could work. However, if they were my fish, I'd rather have one flawless crown jewel than a group of fish that constantly scrap and bicker with one another, EVEN IF they do play nice once mature. That's just my personal preference though. I've stated that they do turn on each other in the wild (which is well documented), which explains problems such as the problems experienced by Sashimimaster, but that might not be the problem with everyone. It might just come down to finding individual fish who have desirable personalities. I've kept enough ATF now that I do believe that they're smart enough to be individuals.
As for your tank, I think it would be a long, long time before your fish outgrew it. Even with a six pack (you have 3v and 3t, right?) in your 10x4, I feel that you could keep all of them with your dithers (and by dithers, I mean swimming fish that can handle the violent current plus any bottom dwellers of choice) for essentially as long as you want to. The V's are unlikely to get much over about 20" and the T's will likely not get much beyond 24". It'll also take a long time for them to get there.
If I had your tank and plans, I'd feel very comfortable with not needing to upgrade. Though as the fish get bigger, you'd probably have to remove any fancy decorations. I think a six pack of tigers would be fine in your setup, but it would be FULL with them in there. But still, I'd run my tigers, add loads of current as they grow until I get to that magic GPH that is 50x my volume and call it a day. Any upgrades that you do would be probably only be because you wanted to hook your fish up, not because they really needed it.
I wish you and I could actually talk about this over a beer or something. I do support your idea. I want it to work. I really do. You just asked for any negatives and I threw them out there. I can be a bit terse with my delivery at times, and for that I apologize.
I want to see you with a six pack of huge yellowtail tigers. I'll help however I can Al; even if that means telling you the negatives. If I bring this stuff up now, at least you're aware of them and can potentially mitigate these issues before they become real problems.
One of the nicest GATF I've ever seen lives in a 6' tank. Honestly DB...I'd trust your gut and go for it. There are a handful of people on the planet keeping giant ATF. A lot of advice I see on the subject is purely subjective with no hands on experience behind it.
If I had a 10x4' and wasn't gung-ho on a GATF, my only question would be "what else is going in the community"
If I had a 10x4' and wasn't gung-ho on a GATF, my only question would be "what else is going in the community"
I found this video of x6 17-20" atf all living in one tank. It also doesn't look like there is much current at all because the feeders don't seem to be blowing away. His fish don't look beat up either and they all look nice.
[video=youtube;nZoZp9sdazc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZoZp9sdazc[/video]
IME though, even with high current/oxygen, lots of dithers, and always making sure my fish are beyond fed (2-3 times a day on hikari carnisticks), there is still deadly aggression among each other. My fish have never seen a feeder in my possession. Lost a fatf and 2 gatf before i finally realize its not going to work keeping them in the same tank. I keep my atf separated now. Vittatus is the culprit in killing everyone.
Short Clip of my Tank: [video]http://instagram.com/p/jPicw3qZ6I/[/video]
Here is the link that that proves you can keep a group of taft/vatf but the only difference is that their tank looks huge. There's got to be a secret in being able to keep a group of atf together. And current and dither don't seem to be the answer in the two videos of adult sized packs. (I'm all for dithers and current)
Vatf/Taft Group: [video]http://instagram.com/p/ciX9PERBgQ/[/video]
[video=youtube;nZoZp9sdazc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZoZp9sdazc[/video]
IME though, even with high current/oxygen, lots of dithers, and always making sure my fish are beyond fed (2-3 times a day on hikari carnisticks), there is still deadly aggression among each other. My fish have never seen a feeder in my possession. Lost a fatf and 2 gatf before i finally realize its not going to work keeping them in the same tank. I keep my atf separated now. Vittatus is the culprit in killing everyone.
Short Clip of my Tank: [video]http://instagram.com/p/jPicw3qZ6I/[/video]
Here is the link that that proves you can keep a group of taft/vatf but the only difference is that their tank looks huge. There's got to be a secret in being able to keep a group of atf together. And current and dither don't seem to be the answer in the two videos of adult sized packs. (I'm all for dithers and current)
Vatf/Taft Group: [video]http://instagram.com/p/ciX9PERBgQ/[/video]
Like I've mentioned, I'm new to ATF, but not Characins. I've kept a lot over the years and I've experienced some pretty interesting stuff, but it's hard to justify experimenting with fish you've put lots of time and money into raising, but if you have the kind of plans/ideas I have for an eventual masterpiece that will be years in the making, it becomes necessary to experiment.
Seems to me there's a delicate balance in our predatory tanks. I know that removing certain fish in certain tanks leads to certain results. A lot of my fish behave entirely different when there are larger fish in the tank. I've ALWAYS kept larger non toothy fish in with my toothy fish. Seems in the presence of larger fish they don't seem as prone to try to run the tank. The last experiment was a Dorado with the Odoe. I'm pretty sure we could all guess the outcome of a Dorado housed with a smaller Odoe, yet give the Odoe a pack and the Dorado won't touch them. Strength in numbers?
This brings me to the group of ATF. Same concept. I have some "crown jewels" I plan on keeping with the Tigers- Robert the Brassy Dorado, Lucy the Lacerdae, and Zuul the Aimara. They will be much larger then the Tigers as they're all over a foot already. So in my eyes the Tigers will know the tank isn't theirs so may not act up as much. Maybe in the presence of larger fish like this they will be more concerned with sticking together and surviving then pecking order amongst the group? The larger fish are loaners, I'm hoping if I had a pack of Tigers then much like my Odoe, if I have enough then maybe the larger fish leave them be?
I understand this could fail. But given current and past stock lists and the "failures" involved I think I have a leg to stand on, as the only combo I had serious trouble with was 2 Frankie Dorado.
I have 8 Masheer I've been growing out over the last half decade, all but 1 currently reside trouble free in the big tank with my "crown jewels", I think that these guys along with my "peacekeeper" a giant lemon finned barb, and a few Balas I should have enough dithers for decent sized group of Tigers. The plan has always been to mix ATF with Masheer. The only problem is the growth rate on Masheer is sooooo friggin slow I seriously think this small "speedbump" set me back several YEARS.... lol
I currently have 3 Ts and 3 Vs. The Vs are maybe half the size of the Ts if even that. However I can't help but feel the Vs need to be outnumbered. Was thinking of doubling the number of Ts vs Vs. This way if the Vs end up running a muck I can just scrap the V idea and run with a pack of Ts.
The only thing I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around is 40,000 gph worth of current??? (50X tank volume?) I picture a jet ski running balls out in the tank and all the fish plastered on the opposite end..... lol
Seems to me there's a delicate balance in our predatory tanks. I know that removing certain fish in certain tanks leads to certain results. A lot of my fish behave entirely different when there are larger fish in the tank. I've ALWAYS kept larger non toothy fish in with my toothy fish. Seems in the presence of larger fish they don't seem as prone to try to run the tank. The last experiment was a Dorado with the Odoe. I'm pretty sure we could all guess the outcome of a Dorado housed with a smaller Odoe, yet give the Odoe a pack and the Dorado won't touch them. Strength in numbers?
This brings me to the group of ATF. Same concept. I have some "crown jewels" I plan on keeping with the Tigers- Robert the Brassy Dorado, Lucy the Lacerdae, and Zuul the Aimara. They will be much larger then the Tigers as they're all over a foot already. So in my eyes the Tigers will know the tank isn't theirs so may not act up as much. Maybe in the presence of larger fish like this they will be more concerned with sticking together and surviving then pecking order amongst the group? The larger fish are loaners, I'm hoping if I had a pack of Tigers then much like my Odoe, if I have enough then maybe the larger fish leave them be?
I understand this could fail. But given current and past stock lists and the "failures" involved I think I have a leg to stand on, as the only combo I had serious trouble with was 2 Frankie Dorado.
I have 8 Masheer I've been growing out over the last half decade, all but 1 currently reside trouble free in the big tank with my "crown jewels", I think that these guys along with my "peacekeeper" a giant lemon finned barb, and a few Balas I should have enough dithers for decent sized group of Tigers. The plan has always been to mix ATF with Masheer. The only problem is the growth rate on Masheer is sooooo friggin slow I seriously think this small "speedbump" set me back several YEARS.... lol
I currently have 3 Ts and 3 Vs. The Vs are maybe half the size of the Ts if even that. However I can't help but feel the Vs need to be outnumbered. Was thinking of doubling the number of Ts vs Vs. This way if the Vs end up running a muck I can just scrap the V idea and run with a pack of Ts.
The only thing I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around is 40,000 gph worth of current??? (50X tank volume?) I picture a jet ski running balls out in the tank and all the fish plastered on the opposite end..... lol
