Yet another "Is my tank overstocked question"?

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Right now before a water change nitrates run about 60-80 ppm from what it looks like on the test kit color strip, though I can never seem to tell exactly what the color is. Even though the nitrates run high I seen NO ill side affects from nitrates. It always has seemed to me that the hardy ca/sa cichlids just adjust. Ammonia and Nitrites are always 0.
 
sledge760;904966; said:
Right now before a water change nitrates run about 60-80 ppm from what it looks like on the test kit color strip, though I can never seem to tell exactly what the color is. Even though the nitrates run high I seen NO ill side affects from nitrates. It always has seemed to me that the hardy ca/sa cichlids just adjust. Ammonia and Nitrites are always 0.

In that case I would have to say that IMO, your tank is overstocked and it's going to get worse as your fish grow...if your fish grow (high nitrate levels stunt fish).
 
sledge760,
I live just north of Philly. You most likely get your water from Aqua America like me. Mine comes with 10-30 PPMs of nitrates. So my tanks are always around 100 PPMs before the weekly water changes. All my Africans cichlids are growing; however, my largest is just over 4". So maybe the high nitrates are keeping them from getting full size (good because it allows me to keep more). One problem I have is none of my fish have spawned. That includes my community tank with guppies and sword tails.

BTW - Have you checked out the new Big Al's in Plymouth Meeting?
 
sledge760;905001; said:
Can you tell me where it say's that high nitrates definitely stunt fish growth rate? My fish have been growing like crazy.

Just asking.

Where do you think the myth that fish only grow to the size of their tank comes from? Why do you think stocking rules exist in the first place? The negative effects of high nitrates is pretty common knowledge. High nitrates aren't likely to kill a fish but they are responsable for other things. Stunting is caused by high nitrates, so is HITH, swim baldder problems, ulcers, anemia, tuberculosis and just stress in general. Even if you cannot see anything physically wrong with the fish, that doesn't mean there isen't.

From TFH issue on N03, August 2005.
"In several studies, hybrid striped bass exposed to nitrate levels of over 200 milligrams per liter for periods of up to a couple months showed a suppressed immune response and hemlytic changes, including an abnormaly high number of immature red blood cells. Some of the nitrate exposed fish developed jaundice, and in one of the studies , they appeared to go blind, swimming into objects and the walls of the tank a week after nitrates reached the 200 mg/L marl. In the same study fish began to die after seven weeks of exposure. Dissection revealed that many had abnormal spleens, livers and kidneys. Viewed under a microscope, the gill filaments of fish that lived in nitrate-rich water often looked abnormal...the apperance of the gills is often brownish, instead of being a nice bright red color...and while normal gill filimanets look like long slender fingers, she adds, those of nitrate exposed fish often looked clubbed- that is, thickened and stuck together, something that drastically reducedes the gills overall surface area and therefore affects both osmoregulation and the fishes ability to extract oxygen from the water."

10ppm of nitrate-nitrogen (that's a mere 3.03 ppm of nitrate) has been shown to have adverse effects on salmonids such as Oncorhynchus mykiss, Oncorhynchus tshawytscha and Salmo clarki, as well as upon a number of freshwater invertebrates and frogs.

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.u...m.php?news=560

Histological survey was made to determine nitrate toxicity on the Medaka fish, Oryzias latipes. In order to investigate the effects of short-term exposure to nitrate, one-month-old Medaka fish was exposed to NaNO3 at concentrations of 100 and 125 mg NO3-N l-1 for 96 hours. At the end of the exposure period, survival rate was found to be 30% and 10%, for the 100 and 125 mg NO3-N l-1 exposure concentrations, respectively. Histological examination of the organs showed that disruption of cell alignment was a common feature in the gills, intestinal ampulla, liver and kidney. A long-term exposure experiment was also carried out, whereby Medaka fish was exposed to NaNO3 (100 and 125 mg NO3-N l-1) for three months from its egg stage. Eggs treated with NaNO3 hatched within 10 days after fertilization. At the end of the exposure period, survival rate in the 100 and 125 mg NO3-N l-1 treatments were 40% and 30%, respectively. Fibrosis of the hepatic cells and curved spinal column were observed in the juveniles subjected to long-term nitrate exposure. The results of our experiments suggest that the high mortality resulting from short-term acute exposure to nitrate is caused by general dysfunction throughout the whole body. The chronic toxic effects attributed to nitrate, following long-term exposure, were likely to have resulted from nutrient deficiency caused by hepatic dysfunction.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

Excessive levels of nitrate are also directly harmful to aquatic animals. Aquatic invertebrates and fish exposed to nitrate may be smaller, slower to mature, or have lower reproductive success. Under extremely high exposure levels, aquatic invertebrates and fish may die. Early life stages of aquatic animals are more sensitive to nitrate than are juvenile and adult animals. Larval stages of amphibians appear to be particularly sensitive to subtle effects from nitrate exposure. For example, nitrate can reduce the overall size and weight of frog tadpoles by the time they change into adults. This may reduce their ability to compete for food or mates or to escape from predators.

http://www.ec.gc.ca/ceqg-rcqe/Englis...itrate_WQG.cfm

What levels should I be aiming for?
Try to keep the nitrate level as low as possible. Some fish and inverts are particularly sensitive to raised levels. For inverts and sensitive marines, the levels msut be below 15ppm. Tropical freshwater species should be kept below 40ppm, where possible.
What effect will high nitrate levels have on my fish?
High levels of nitrate will stress your fish. This affects their immune systems and they are much more at risk from diseases such as whitespot.

Increased levels over a long term may reduce your fishes' lifespans, cause deformities and won't help much if you're trying to breed them - poor water quality doesn't put fish in the mood.

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.u...p?article_id=7
 
I agree that high nitrates are not good for fish. Why do you think I change almost 40% of my water weekly? The 60-80 ppm would be the day of the water change. On average I would call my nitrates 45ppm, which for CA/SA cichlids is acceptable but could be lower. Either way I am not having a 180 gallon tank with two fish in it so I can keep nitrates down.

vfc: I live right inside Philly, and have tested my water coming out of the tap. It is typically around 15-20 ppm. This is why I am using a Kent Marin 60 gpd RO/DI unit for my water. I use half ro/di and half tap which lowers the level to around 5ppm. I know that it is really not necessary to use ro/di water for fresh, but this is the only way to keep my nitrates down.

Yes I have been to Big Al's a couple of times. Quite frankly I was blown away by the fish room, and the store in general. It is clean, well stocked, and has plenty of knowledgeable staff to take care of customers. Finally after all these years I have a good lfs that is only 15 minutes from my house. I used to run up to Hidden Reef, when I had a saltwater setup, but now the new store is even further away. At least and hour drive.
 
I don't know why you're getting an attitude with me. You asked if your tank is overstocked did you not? Well, maybe I'm not giving you the answer you want to hear but I am giving you an answer none the less. And like I said before, the fish will grow and the situation will get worse. But whatever, it's your tank.
 
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