Your Views: Wattley's Advice On Black Discus Disease

[Westie]

In this months TFH advice column by Dr. Jack Wattley, a hobbyist writes in on having a reaccuring problem with an older discus losing color and shrinking(getting thin) and eventually dying but, no real loss in appetite. Something that has happened to me in the past as well. So the good doctor recommends lowering the pH down to 4.0(!) over a period of 72 hours and, leaving it there for 10-14 days then readjusting it slowly back to 6.5. This is not a quarantine but, a tankwide treatment as all fish are supposedly affected by a bacterial infection. The lowering of the pH kills all bacteria in the discus' system.

Though I'm always in search of good discus advice I thought I'd ask here if anyones tried this method as this sounds like not only will it kill bacteria but, everything else in the tank too. One of my large leopards has recently gone this route but, like I said I'm afraid as my loaches may have a reaction to the sharp swing in pH. And, I've had this problem with older discus in the past and I have never found a medication that has brought them back to health. So, anyone try this and care to comment?

vvv-my Leopard duo-vvv

 

[hillbilly]

I have never had this problem, but if anyone should try it, I would suggest having a cycled back up filter available for use when you raise the PH back up. A PH of 4 will surely kill off the bacteria in your filter, leaving you without biofiltration, and an uncycled tank.

 

[Wet Whiskers]

I got this mystery disease once, and it almost wiped everyone of my fish out. It was awful. I found that lowering the pH made a huge difference, but I by no means went that low. I went to about 6.0, and used Parasite Green. It was the only thing that knocked this out. It was literally going tank to tank, possibly on my hands... But it was a killer like nothing else I've seen. I just kept doing tons of huge water changes, preparing my water to exact hardness, pH, and temp every time. Eventually, I knocked it out, but I probably lost a 1/3 of my discus. Oh, and as a side note, this actually started in a quarantine tank and made it to my other tanks without moving a fish.

Since then I keep my pH at around 6.2-6.5, the temp at 82, the nitrates at zero using plants and anaerobic bacteria, a UV sterilizer, and have a supplemental auto feeder. This seems to keep all diseases at bay for me. I figure by the time I even start to think about how much my fish are worth, the upgraded system was totally worth it, and it ultimately is super low maintenance. Like my FULLY stocked tank can go almost a month without even showing nitrate.

Edit: You know, I think we actually may have had it just below 6.0, and we found that to be the final kicker.

 

[Dkarc]

Well in theory yes, it works because there is virtually zero bacterial activity at that low of a pH. But going off of what was described in the original post, it didnt sound like a bacterial problem but more of an intestinal parasite problem.....like a tapeworm. But if Wattley is the expert, what do I know?

-Ryan

**As a side note on the discus plague/black discus disease...there have been multiple publishings of discus being asymptomatic carriers of a certain salmonid virus. Maybe at times it isnt so asymptomatic?? Whats funny is that Wattley writes to lower the pH to 4 and leave it there for a while, and at the same time this virus is inactive at a pH of 3 (inactivated by a few other parasite treatments as well). Now, inactivated does not mean cured (its a virus, no cure for that) but rather stop its processes of infection (correct me if im wrong)....that means its still around waiting to hit again when conditions are favorable.

 

[Wet Whiskers]

I've seen intestinal problems before, and this is really different. With intestinal problems, the fish may get dark and hide, but, with this disease, the fish end up looking like the rotting dead. Their pelvic fins start to shrivel, their skin gets black, slim coat is excessive in some areas, and other areas are completely necrotic. Its bad.

With the intestinal parasites, you notice them either wasting and not eating, or being bloated and not eating. Also, you usually can see some indications of intestinal problems in the feces. The fish also begins to get gaunt around the head before the illness has past the point of no return. Treatment with Prazipro (in water and for worms) and metronidazole (in food and for intestinal flagellates and some intestinal bacteria) is your treatment for these.

With the "Black Discus Disease," an otherwise healthy fish is very sick within hours, and dead within days.

Edit: At least this was my experience.

 

[Wet Whiskers]

Well in theory yes, it works because there is virtually zero bacterial activity at that low of a pH. But going off of what was described in the original post, it didnt sound like a bacterial problem but more of an intestinal parasite problem.....like a tapeworm. But if Wattley is the expert, what do I know?

-Ryan

**As a side note on the discus plague/black discus disease...there have been multiple publishings of discus being asymptomatic carriers of a certain salmonid virus. Maybe at times it isnt so asymptomatic?? Whats funny is that Wattley writes to lower the pH to 4 and leave it there for a while, and at the same time this virus is inactive at a pH of 3 (inactivated by a few other parasite treatments as well). Now, inactivated does not mean cured (its a virus, no cure for that) but rather stop its processes of infection (correct me if im wrong)....that means its still around waiting to hit again when conditions are favorable.

The last I looked for the actual cause of this disease, there was no known cause. But, it has been a couple years, and I would love to get some references. I wonder if the low pH makes it difficult for the virus to replicate, thus allowing the fish to recover, while the virus is not completely eradicated.
I will see if I can find some new information on this.

 

[hillbilly]

I read about "Discus Plague" a long time ago. At that time, people who had a fish with it, were destroying their stock, bleaching everything, and starting over. That's how bad the disease was. I haven't kept up with it in recent years either, so I don't really know what advances have been made. Thankfully, it doesn't seem to be such a widespread problem these days.

 

[Wet Whiskers]

I read about "Discus Plague" a long time ago. At that time, people who had a fish with it, were destroying their stock, bleaching everything, and starting over. That's how bad the disease was. I haven't kept up with it in recent years either, so I don't really know what advances have been made. Thankfully, it doesn't seem to be such a widespread problem these days.

Ok, so I hunted down the stuff I used to get rid of this disease. I have heard that they may be or have already discontinued making it because of the risk of cancer to the person dispensing it. It was probably really hard on the fish, but with out it they were just dead fish. So its called "Paracide Green" and contains: Formalin, p.p. benzylidene-N, N, dimethylanaline. (Don't ask me what it all is, 'cause I'll probably, just for some fun, give you an answer that sounds totally legit and is actually a bunch of bs. All I know is it worked.)
So, it was this + pH 5.8 ish that got rid of it. I didn't have to start over, but I had some serious losses.

 

[Westie]

Thank you all for your intelligent responses.

 

[Yanbbrox]

This is strange. I've just throughly read each post and without knowing it at the time it's happened to me. When I first decided to get into discus a few years back I did everything reasonably the old fashioned way using RO and lots of changes and started out with a cycled tank and 6 fish, all was well for the first few months then within 72 hours one fish lost all color and went black, a further 24 hours later is was dead. Since then in the same tank I struggled on losing fish for another year, lost plenty of fish on the way but never in the same way. In the end I shut the tank down as it was costing too much to keep stocking.

Intersting stuff, I'll read up further, thanks for the info